What is Equine Therapy? How can it support my child who is neurodivergent? With Sarah Hayden

Laetitia: Welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers, and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite-sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum and founder of Understanding Zoe. This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Laetitia: Hello Sarah. Welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Sarah: Good morning. Thank you for having me.

Laetitia: It is going to be a juicy conversation. But before we start with the interview, I always love to give the opportunity to our guests to introduce themselves, a little bit about their background and what led you to working with horses, becoming an author, all of this kind of work that you do to support neurodivergent children and their families.

Sarah: Thank you. So, I am a social worker, an equine assisted psychotherapist, and mum to five incredible kids, including the amazing Chloe Hayden, who many of you will know as an author, autism advocate, and actress. So I guess like many people working in this space, my journey to here was a pretty personal one. So obviously growing up neurodivergent Chloe it sort of led me into this space and you know becoming, wanting to know everything about it and becoming the parenting expert that you do when you're raising kids with any kind of additional needs I think and that's sort of, yeah, led me down a career in social work. I'm also the mum to adopt children from inter country and was also a foster mum for five years fostering 55 kids. So all of that sort of together led me into the space of social work and parenting. And it was working with Chloe sort of delivering conferences that I ended up, yeah, writing the book that I've now got, Parenting Different.

Laetitia: I love it. I love this story and I just enjoy so much the more I dive into this community how many of us started working in that space as advocate based on our own lived experience and the lived experience of our own children. So that's beautiful. Thank you Sarah.

Sarah: Absolutely. And so many of us then end up getting diagnosed ourselves which is really common in this community as well.

Laetitia: Completely, completely. Oh, as you mentioned that I had another question for you but as you mentioned that I would love for you to share a bit more about your own journey discovering about your own neurodivergence.

Sarah: Yeah sure. So again, like many, many parents, it was actually during Chloe's ADHD assessment, which came many years after her autism diagnosis, where somebody had actually said to her, she was working with a psychologist, I think, at a conference, and they sort of made some comment to her about, "Oh, you're ADHD." And she was like, "No, no, I'm Autistic." And they were like, "No, no, you're ADHD." And she kind of started talking to me and exploring it. And you know, even then, that was probably about eight years ago. But even then, I was kind of like, she's not ADHD. Like, you know, I still sort of had that fairly narrow mindset of what the presentation of ADHD looked like. And, you know, it was sort of that typical young male model rather than the young adult female kind of presentation, which we now know can be quite different and not sort of like the stereotype.

Sarah: And so, you know, I actually accompanied her to her appointment of getting her ADHD assessment. And, you know, I remember sitting there sort of in the background like doing all the parent assessments and then doing her assessment with her and I was like, "Hang on a sec. Is this not how everybody's brain kind of works?" And so, I actually had a conversation with the psychiatrist afterwards and was like, "I'm pretty sure that you just diagnosed me ADHD as well." And he was like, "Well, you're going to have to go and get your own assessment." Which I waited for many years doing. I sort of had this kind of, again like I think many adults do, it was almost like, oh is it worth going and getting it, you know, it's probably not worth the money or the wait or the time and, you know, does it really matter? And then also that kind of almost imposter syndrome of, well what if I go down the path and then I'm not, you know.

Sarah: Anyway, I eventually decided that I would and I went to a totally different therapist to get diagnosed and yeah, absolutely aced the exam, got an A+ on my ADHD assessment. And yeah, since then, you know, another one of my children and my husband also has. So, we're a very neurosparkly family.

Laetitia: Thank you. Thank you for sharing this journey, which is kind of similar to the journey I went on. So, yeah, could really relate to that. You just mentioned now a word that you write a lot in your book, which is neurosparkly. Can you explain to everyone who hasn't had the chance to read Parenting Different, which I encourage everyone to read? Anything that you would like to share about this definition?

Sarah: Thank you. Yes. So I think, you know, for many years we've heard the term neurospicy thrown around which is also fabulous and totally fine but for me spicy kind of feels a bit prickly and a bit hot and not everybody likes it and it's a bit like, you know, I don't know, some people are a little bit challenged with hot or spicy things or food. And so for me, I've kind of always gone, I, like everyone who knows me knows I love glitter and sparkles and all things shiny like a lot of I think neurodivergent people do.

Sarah: And for me I just kind of started imagining, and it's how I describe to so many of my clients, particularly those that I'm in the process of diagnosing because I do diagnostic assessments. And as a therapist that I work with when we're sort of trying to explain the difference of their brain, I love especially to young people kind of explaining that, you know, their brains are really sparkly and full of glitter and rainbows and sparkles and just kind of giving that really creative, fun, sparkly brain because the more that I've worked with neurodivergent people over the years, the more I actually see them as just being so much more creative in so many ways. And I'm not saying just artistic, but thinking outside the box and looking at things in a different way.

Sarah: And you know, we'll often sort of look at pictures of brains with the kids and kind of go, they're really boring and kind of grey and, you know, there's not much in them. But, you know, neurosparkly brains are like just so incredible. And so, especially for little kids, they kind of love that kind of thought and analogy of it. And so for me, I don't know, I just see it as a really positive, lovely way to explain the difference in our brains in a really simple way for little kids.

Laetitia: It sounds cool. Neurosparkly.

Sarah: Yeah, it sounds very cool.

Laetitia: And it's more inclusive than neurospicy. I read a little while ago an article about how neurospicy can be exclusive in some community as well because of the connotation of spices and things like that. So I really love this word that you use in your book around neurosparkly. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Laetitia: And so you mentioned quickly that you work with horses as an equine therapist. Can you explain, because Zoe does equine therapy and she absolutely loves it and I grew up surrounded by horses. I had my horse when I was very little on the farm of my grandparents and it explains a lot about how I would regulate myself as a child with the horses and so on. So can you explain to everyone who is listening to this podcast who may not be familiar with horse therapy what it is and then maybe the benefit of it or what the session look like? We can go into more detail afterwards.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. So, like you, I also grew up with horses on a property. Just, you know, it was part of my life. Absolutely. You know, remember the weekends just spending, doesn't matter what your week is like, you go out and hang with the horses. You know, I'd be the kid that would be sitting out there reading my book or doing my homework next to the ponies and they'd just come and stand next to you and you'd just feel this total sense of calm and happiness and wellbeing just being around them.

Sarah: And when Chloe was little, she was one of these kids that was born like many neurodivergent girls I found, born just obsessed with horses. You know, it was like, I didn't kind of introduce her to it because as a parent I was like I don't know whether I really want to go down that horse journey that my parents went down and it means, you know, lots of money and buying land and all of this kind of stuff. So it wasn't something that we introduced at all. But she literally, I always say, she just came out of the womb just like addicted to horses. You know, since she was very, very little, she was like, I want a pony. Everything was pony. She was pony mad.

Sarah: And, you know, eventually we kind of gave into that and started taking her to horse riding lessons when she was actually in a really bad way at school. Anyone who knows her journey or has read her book or my book knows that school was hell for her. And, you know, she was bullied relentlessly. She was excluded. It impacted enormously on her mental health. You know, she had no friends. She was never invited to things on the weekends like the other kids were. You know, it resulted in really significant mental health issues, including several years with a significant eating disorder. And, you know, this one constant was her just wanting to ride horses.

Sarah: And so, you know, eventually I was like, well, life's pretty tough for her. There's not that much she's interested in. Let's see if this is something that she's wanting to do. And, you know, I could honestly say that no matter how horrendous her week was, how depressed she was, what was going on, as soon as we would turn up to that riding school, her whole demeanour would change. She just had such an affinity with these ponies and also the other kids riding them. It was like this beautiful bond that all of these horse kids just kind of had. And you know, when you're there in your messy hair and your helmet and your jodhpurs and your boots, no one cares what you look like or what you're good at or what you're doing. And we just saw this kid just literally come to life every single time that she was around these horses.

Sarah: And, you know, it was something that we just couldn't deny. And so we started getting her into holiday programs. And you know, eventually, yes, it led to us selling up our home in the middle of Melbourne City and moving to property and land and collecting horses, which we're still doing today. So, you know, it was just, you could just see the transformation and the benefits for her.

Sarah: And I guess it sort of led me down a path of, you know, I've always loved horses myself. And I started reading and seeing, you know, it was really big in America before it became, you know, in Australia and it's still quite emerging here but you know there is just so much evidence around the benefits of equine therapy particularly for people with complex PTSD, you know, veterans and people like that. And particularly I think kids in particular who don't want to go and sit in a traditional therapy. I mean who wants to go and sit on the couch in an office next to some spectacled old man who's kind of, tell me about your problems, you know, it's not really that conducive to opening up with therapy. But with something like equine therapy, you're in an environment where most people, particularly children, absolutely love being around ponies. And it's just this beautiful environment that just makes therapeutic work so much easier and so much lovelier.

Sarah: And yeah, so I ended up going and doing, you know, I'm a qualified social worker, so an allied health professional. I went and did my postgraduate studies in equine assisted psychotherapy. And that led to me opening up my own small clinic at home with some beautiful old ponies and the benefits have just been incredible. You know, I've frequently worked with kids who have been in traditional therapy with a psychologist and a psychiatrist for many, many years. And I'll frequently get parents say to me that they've got more out of two or three sessions with myself and the ponies than what they have in years and years of sort of more traditional therapy. So, I think the benefits are just amazing.

Laetitia: I love that. And I have seen the same journey in Zoe and I really didn't nurture it. You know, it's this thing where it's like nature versus nurture. As a horse rider myself, I was competing. I was like into it so much and I didn't want to go down that path with, and she just jumped on it when she was very little. I remember she just wanted to see horses and pointing them out and we had to go and see the horses in different stable or stop on a ride and go and pat the pony. So, there is definitely something there. So, for anyone,

Sarah: Funny, I read something recently and it said, you know, the checklist, for one of the checklists of autism in boys is like loves trains, you know, like trains is like a really typical, and then it's like but in neurodivergent girls it's horses and I'm like, oh my goodness, it's actually so true. Like it just seems to be a real thing particularly with neurodivergent girls. It's like they just have this incredible love and affinity and desire to be around horses. It's almost they know of the benefits for them, of what it does for their nervous system and just that friendship that a horse provides to you that is just something that, you know, is often really lacking in their human circle.

Laetitia: Completely. Oh my goodness. And so for anyone who's listening to this and they just imagine that an equine therapy session is about riding horses. Can you explain to them what it actually is and what do you actually do during an equine therapy session? Because I had to explain it to some of my friends when they're like, "Oh, you said Zoe does equine therapy. What does it look like?" So I would love for you from your expertise to share a bit more about what it is.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. So most equine therapists don't actually involve horse riding at all. So for me in my equine therapy clinic there's absolutely no horse riding at all. So it's basically traditional therapy. I have a therapy room still which is set up and you know we work with the ponies and it often involves sort of chatting to the children. I use equine therapy cards around feelings and emotions. Obviously, it's adapted to the person, their age, their skill level, their ability to sort of verbalise how they're feeling or whether it's using emotions cards and things like that.

Sarah: But ultimately, it really is around going out and catching the ponies and brushing them and spending some time with them. We often feed them. And in that process of working with the ponies, there's an opening up and sharing of, for them, what's going on, how they're feeling, identifying some feelings or emotions in the ponies that may then open up discussions around them.

Sarah: For most children, I would say, who attend an equine therapy session, for them, it's not actually a therapy session. They're just coming to hang out with the ponies. And that's the benefit of it because in that process they're not feeling like they're being forced to open up or do anything that they don't want to do. A lot of things just come out a lot more naturally in those sessions because you're just spending time bonding with the ponies. But it just allows for that kind of opening up of natural conversation that just occurs when they're out doing something that they love.

Sarah: And you know, one of the comments that I'll often hear from parents is, we're trying to force them to go to see their psychologist or their OT or their speech therapist every week and they hate it because this kind of this demand put on them and this expectation that they're going to perhaps go and sit in a room with somebody who's going to maybe make them do stuff that they don't want to do or they've got homework to do afterwards. And this sort of, for a lot of our kids there's this extra demand of what they perceive as almost like further schooling or education or homework. Whereas I don't think there's ever been a kid that hasn't been like, I want to go and see the ponies again.

Laetitia: I love that. And having a PDA and being PDA myself, I think this demand that you mentioned is really that like this thing on top whereas what I really want to do is it with a pony. And I've seen, yeah, I've seen Zoe just being by the side of the pony and just patting him and then sharing with her therapist things that she had never shared before.

Sarah: Absolutely.

Laetitia: And then coming back and me asking her how was it and opening up about some things that she would have never shared otherwise. So, I really see the benefits. I'm a huge fan. So for anyone who's listening to this and they're like, "Okay, I would love to find a place to do equine therapy." What should they look out for to make sure that it's safe, ethical, affirming, you know, the best experience? Because as everything you have, good, bad, and ugly. How do they need to look out for apart from the horses looking healthy and beautiful? Because for me, like as a former rider it's like I always look for how the horses [inaudible]. What else would you share with them?

Sarah: So obviously word of mouth is a really good start but I think, you know, we know that in Australia recently there's been a lot of controversy around the NDIS funding certain therapies and people sort of mistakenly believing that things like equine therapy aren't being funded. What the NDIS were actually doing was cracking down on people who weren't registered equine assisted psychotherapists who were calling themselves equine therapists and charging therapy rates when they actually weren't. So, you know, unfortunately like many things in Australia it can be quite an unregulated industry.

Sarah: So I think making sure that somebody is actually first and foremost an allied health professional. So an equine assisted psychotherapist is going to have some kind of existing allied health degree first, be it a social worker like myself, a psychologist or an occupational therapist or a mental health nurse. They've then gone and done further studies on top of that.

Sarah: And you know, first and foremost in our community, neuroaffirming is absolutely the most important thing. You know, you can have all the qualifications and degrees and bits of paper in the world, but if you're not neuroaffirming and believing that us and our kids are exactly who they are meant to be and that we are not getting therapy to change them, we are getting therapy to support them and to support them to realise that they are absolutely amazing and enough and perfect as they are and giving them the tips and strategies to be able to support themselves in a world which isn't made to support them, then we shouldn't be going to that therapy.

Laetitia: For sure, we are all about affirming approach on this podcast. So I love that and that's what I really remember from your book. So for, because we are about a time because I took this commitment of making the episode 20 to 25 minutes max. But before we move on to my last questions, I would love to ask you about your journey to write your book. So I have your book here and I got it from you. I have a signed version of your book Parenting Different and for anyone who is watching this. So what would you share about this journey? How did this book came to be? Tell us.

Sarah: It's amazing. It's one of those beautiful things where the universe just provided something that I've wanted my whole life. So, since I was a very young girl, anyone who would say to me, you know, I'd have my teachers at school, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I was like, a writer. I've always loved writing. And it's sort of always been a bit of a pipe dream.

Sarah: And I was actually incredibly lucky where I got Murdoch, who had published Chloe's book, actually reached out to me one day. I got an email in my inbox randomly just sort of saying, "Hey, have you ever thought about writing a book? We've seen some of the talks that you're doing and the education and we think you should do a book." And I was like, I Googled this person because I was like, "This has got to be fake. This can't be this kind of easy and land in your lap." Anyway, sure enough, it was. And, you know, of course, I emailed back instantly. Yes, absolutely. Yes. You know, I'll do it.

Sarah: It was a lot longer and a lot harder than I expected, you know, of course, but they were incredible and really helped support the process of it. And I think what it is is just it's a combination of my own experiences but also the most commonly asked questions and need that I've seen in the community of people always asking me questions of how should we do this or how should we approach this and trying to get it all into a book so that it can get out there more. So it's just, yeah, sort of I guess all of my learned experiences and education in one book.

Laetitia: Yes. And it's very, very affirming. I really enjoyed reading it and they're full of different stories and full of experiences. And so yeah, thank you so much for writing this book. I'll definitely put the link in the show notes. So, we always like to end the podcast with a quick fire question. So, I sometimes ask what is your favourite fidget? What is your favourite? But for you, what is your favourite book? A book you'd recommend to anyone listening to this podcast to read. It can be your own book. You can do a shameless plug.

Sarah: Well, of course, it's a shameless plug and it's my own book. I think the difference with my book is that I've got the lived experience but also the professional experience. So lived experience as a neurodivergent person myself and a parent and also a professional. But I think you're right, the difference is that so many books, particularly therapy books or sort of educational books on neurodivergence, really focus on all of the things that we need to change in ourselves or our kids or have almost got a bit of a negative undertone that don't really highlight the incredible amazing aspects of us and our children and focusing on those instead of.

Sarah: And you know, one parenting tip if I can finish off with that, I always say to people, I love to use the analogy of most parents will say if their child is really struggling with something like maths, you know, oh I've got to get a maths tutor and I bring in a maths tutor every week because my child really struggles in this subject. And I always flip that to the parent like, what are they great at? What do they love? And they're like, you know, violin or piano or art. And I'm like, get a tutor for that. And they say, but they're really, they're good at that. They don't need that. And I, that's why you need to focus on that. Don't worry about the maths. They're probably never going to be good at maths. They're probably never going to like maths.

Sarah: And this is not just neurodivergent kids. It's all kids. You know, why do we expect everybody to be good at everything or the mainstream things? If we can flip that on the head with everything for ourself and our kids and turn it on to focusing with what they love, what they're good at, what their strengths are, don't worry about the stuff they're not great at, then their life and our life is going to be so much happier and more positive.

Laetitia: Oh my goodness. Amen to that. That is so beautiful. Such a nice way to close this episode. And yes, my daughter is into horses and drama and we're going to nurture that so much.

Sarah: So much.

Laetitia: And we've been doing that so much. So it's a beautiful confirmation. Thank you so much. So, for our listener to learn more about you, connect with you, of course, all of this will be in the show notes, but what is the best way for them to connect with you?

Sarah: So they can look me up on socials, which is either on Instagram, Mama Hayden or Wild One Therapy. And yeah, reach out to me there. I can give out my number, my email. Happy to connect with anybody.

Laetitia: Thank you so much, Sarah, for coming on The Neurodivergent Pulse today.

Sarah: Thank you. It's so lovely to be here. Keep doing what you're doing.

Laetitia: A quick pulse check from Zoe about equine therapy. Zoe, what do you love the most about equine therapy?

Zoe: I love that you're always around horses and you get to be inside nature by yourself.

Laetitia: And Zoe, what did you do when you went for your last equine therapy session?

Zoe: I walked around the stables. I helped the horses by taking off weeds and I patted the horses and talked about the emotions. And last of all, I cleaned up the stables.

Laetitia: Did you like it?

Zoe: Actually, cleaning up the stables is fun. You've got these weird kind of big bubbles, tiny bubbles actually, and they grow like a 100 times their size when you put water inside it. It's very cool to see.

Laetitia: Thank you, Zoe, for joining this quick pulse. That's a wrap for The Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understanding.com.