How to travel without masking: Creating neuroaffirming adventures

Laetitia: Welcome to Neurodivergent Pulse, where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers, and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite-sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host, Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum and founder of Understanding Zoe.

Laetitia: This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was, and always will be Aboriginal land.

Laetitia: Hello, Agnes. Welcome to the Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Agnes: Hello. Thank you for having me.

Laetitia: We are going to have a beautiful conversation about travel and neurodivergence, and how we can support it or make it happen.

Laetitia: But before we get into the nitty gritty of our conversation, I always love to ask our guests where they came to do the work that they're doing. So for you, it's Travengers, and it was born from watching your younger sister, Elise, grow up in a world that was not built for her. So would you like to share a bit more about the journey and how you knew that this was what you were meant to be doing?

Agnes: Yeah. Yeah, it was actually a lot of things that happened, yeah, step by step. It wasn't just one light bulb moment, I guess. But yeah, it all started, having seen my younger sister grow up and being excluded in both school and social life and all those things, and often misunderstood. And she got diagnosed when I was finishing my disability nursing studies, and I ended up writing my bachelor thesis about supporting young autistic adults.

Agnes: And so, yeah, that made me really passionate about seeing how we could make life easier and better for young autistic people. And then I started travelling, and I fell in love with it, and I eventually moved to Australia. And he... I was just gonna be here for six months and work in disability, but one of the people that I worked with, he was a young neurodivergent man, and he didn't have any friends.

Agnes: He really wanted to travel. And so he asked me if I wanted to travel with him. And then, yeah, it just clicked for me that people who have a little bit of support needs don't really have that opportunity, and also really often really struggle to make friends that are, yeah, similar to them and where they can, yeah, be themselves and not having to, you know, be scared of to...

Agnes: saying the wrong thing or having to mask, and all that. And at the time, there was nothing. There was no social groups or anything for young people who were neurodivergent that I could find. And also, yeah, definitely nothing where they could actually travel together rather than having to have a support person to do it with.

Agnes: So yeah, I wanted to bring those young people together so that they could do these things and have access and have opportunities in life where they can grow and travel and, yeah, have a good quality of life. And, yeah, here we are almost six and a half years later.

Laetitia: Yes. That's a beautiful journey.

Laetitia: And it's very often that we hear that as neurodivergent or as disabled, you, yeah, travelling is not for you. It's just this kind of thing where it gets a bit lost and it's becoming, you know, a norm that, yeah, too hard, let's not make it happen. So what are the kind of assumptions that you flipped through those six and a half years of taking young autistic, young neurodivergent folks in travel around the world?

Agnes: Yeah. I think one big thing that, like you say, is that people don't think that they even want to travel. And I find that so interesting because when people sign up with us, they fill a profile, and we ask them for their interests. And yeah, people would assume that it would, the top interest would be, you know, gaming or maybe arts or animals or trains.

Agnes: And yeah, at the top of our interest list is travel and destinations, and that's of, you know, over 600 people, that's the top one. And obviously it might be a little bit of a bias because they've signed up with us, but at the same time, it shows that a lot of, yeah, neurodivergent people really aspire to do these things and dream of it and want to achieve it.

Agnes: And sometimes, yeah, you just gotta break down that barrier to make that happen.

Laetitia: And that barrier maybe comes from the fact that the way we see travel is coming from a neuronormative lens. And I guess when you take those neurodivergent folks on a trip, you definitely think about inclusion and how do you make it possible for them.

Laetitia: So what is genuinely different when you design a trip or if any families are listening to this and they wanna design a trip that will fit their neurodivergent individuals in the family, or if they are neurodivergent families, for them to be able to travel, or a neurodiverse family having some neurodivergent and neurotypical in the mix, which is our case when we travel. Like, how can we make sure we can design a trip differently for everyone?

Agnes: Yeah. I think it depends on a couple things, if it's a child or an adult and if it's a group like ours or if it's a family. But yeah, I guess I can speak to our groups first and then maybe some family tips after. Yeah.

Agnes: But yeah, so for our groups, the first thing is that everybody's neurodivergent, so it's a... yeah, it's naturally a safe space, where, yeah, if you go in another tour group, for example, there might be a mix and you might feel like you have to mask or not feel safe to be yourself. And again, for everything I say, everybody's different obviously, so it's not like a, yeah, one true fact for all. But, yeah, so the group combination itself, and then of course the support guides. You are there to guide each step of the way and also help build those independent skills so that some might actually be, yeah, more likely to do these things themselves eventually.

Agnes: And also having the emotional support there at all time compared to being solo and helping get from A to B and getting up in the morning, and it might be reminding of taking medication or to do certain self-care routines or to take a break and all that stuff, as well as the social navigation between the group members.

Agnes: And of course, yeah, we also learnt a lot of things on the way and sensory breaks and taking timeouts from each other to, yeah, be able to decompress. But we also have a lot of... We have different trip options, obviously. So some are very calm and based on nature or maybe based around animals, so there might be around certain interests as well.

Agnes: And then others like Tokyo, for example, is very high stimuli and there's a lot of things going on there. But yeah, interestingly, that's one of the most popular trips as well, even though it's the most high sensory load on that one. But yeah, we have social stories. We have social story before the trip and where we explain kind of what to expect on a trip and how they can ask for support and all that stuff as well.

Agnes: And yeah, we do a pre-trip Zoom call where we go through the itinerary together and everybody can meet each other and we answer all questions. And yeah, sometimes we get questions of what happens if this happens, and then we can help kind of reduce the anxiety of things as well as, yeah, seeing where we're going, looking at the map and kind of planning out and giving a visual of the whole thing.

Laetitia: So that can also help.

Agnes: And for families, I would say, yeah, preparation is key. For example, before going to an airport, you can look up the airport's accessibility pages and see if they have a sensory room, if they have sensory maps. Some of them do. And create a social story as well, especially, yeah, can be helpful for kids as well, but also for adults, that explains step by step where you're going, what you're doing there, why you're doing it.

Agnes: Maybe have a photo on the side of it. And then, yeah, having a similar pre-trip planning meeting can be an idea, where you kind of make it fun, and you sit down and go through it all. Watch YouTube videos maybe, whether it's from the airport or the destination, and, yeah, just make it exciting rather than scary, I think.

Laetitia: Yeah, I love everything you shared, and it's really something I wish I learnt before, you know? Because the first time we really travelled, it was very challenging as a family. But now, as I shared with you before we pressed record on this, we just back from a trip in Malaysia, and actually now I have this strong habits of over planning and looking at the airport, and that's how I discovered that at Kuala Lumpur they had this butterfly lanyard.

Laetitia: So we had our sunflower lanyard, but on top we could get a butterfly lanyard, and getting access to a sensory room, getting access to a simplified onboarding process. So, I really encourage anyone listening to this to really look at how can you plan and maybe it will be considered as over planning, but it really helps us, definitely showing photos and videos and explaining where we're going, what are we gonna see there, and really making it as much as a fun experience and, yeah, not adding to any of the stress of those transitions and all of those things.

Laetitia: And planning for decompression, I love that you do that in your group. And very often when we travel, we tend to overlook this, but it's actually so essential to have those days where we just rests, and everyone is doing their own thing, and we don't have to go and visit one more thing. It's just about staying in a room, or staying by a pool, or staying by the water or in the forest and just not planning anything, is actually very important.

Agnes: Yeah. Which is a different way to travel, right?

Laetitia: Different.

Agnes: Yeah. Yeah, and some people like it. Like, obviously some people are, you know, ADHD as well and don't like sitting still. Yeah. So it can be a bit of a... Like, sometimes when we have rest breaks, we might have one person who just really needs to move.

Agnes: So then, yeah. There can be space for that too. But yeah, planning from that person's needs is okay.

Laetitia: I love it, and I love when you shared about the ripple effect actually of travel and how it may for some travellers create more sense of connection, more sense of social relationship, a sense of opening themselves to new things that maybe they wouldn't have been exposed to before and feeling, you know, capable of doing these things that they were dreaming about.

Laetitia: So for the family listening to this and they have, you know, a child who is maybe 5, 12, 17, or they are an adult with neurodivergent, like what are the small steps that they can take now well before a first big trip to build that confidence so that they know for them it is possible?

Agnes: Yeah. I think, well, one of the big things is, yeah, just speaking positively about it, talking about the world and, maybe it can be even looking at travel videos, travel guide programs and things like that, or National Geographics.

Agnes: Like first getting that wonder of the world, or curiosity. Because I think if you grow up thinking that travel is a scary thing, then it might always be a scary thing. But of course also helping plan for the barriers that you might face in travel. It's not just... Travelling is not just easy most of the time.

Agnes: But even if you go on a driving holiday with the family going camping, or where there's somewhere they, you don't fly to, you just go by train or drive or whatever. There's always little bits of skill building that you can do on the way and explaining things and, for example, a check in at a hotel, like how can you maybe make the young person confident and let them speak with a person at the desk or at the airport.

Agnes: If you do go to the airport, can you let them put the tags on themselves and those little things, yeah, while they're still young. I think all those things can help build a bit of confidence.

Laetitia: I love it. And can you share with us a moment in those three and a half years taking over 600 people travelling, what you've seen as a genuine moment of belonging for neurodivergent folks that you took on those trip?

Agnes: Oh, there's been many.

Laetitia: You can share many.

Agnes: Yeah. In the beginning I was on all of the trips. I was, yeah, doing everything, from onboarding to travelling, and now we have, yeah, other support guides who do it, often who are neurodivergent themselves. But I think, yeah, from the very beginning, the very first trip that we did was just like a weekend away, and I had no idea how it was gonna go because I was like, "Oh, are these neurodivergent people like, they're strangers.

Agnes: Are they gonna get on?" Wasn't sure. And then, yeah, we came there, we're in Airbnb, and everyone just kind of naturally got on so quickly and they had been encouraged to bring their own board games, a board game they liked, and we sat down and played board games and they were connecting and chatting and had lots in common and shared interests and like there was chats about, you know, Harry Potter and like all these things.

Agnes: And yeah, that was I guess the moment where I was just wow, this is so beautiful and so right. And yeah, and then seeing people over the years who have really started out being very shy or closed off and then they just click with someone and they just chat and chat and chat and there's so much in common, and it's just like they've known each other for 10 years.

Agnes: And yeah, it's just, yeah, really, really nice to see.

Laetitia: The beauty of neurokin finding each other and yeah, having this shared interest and the info dumping being the norm, you know? That's so special. Really, really special. Thank you for sharing this. So for anyone who is listening to this, and they have a young neurodivergent adult under their care or there's themself a neurodivergent adult, and they would like to sign up for any events or trip, what is the best way for them to connect with your work, with yourself, with Travengers?

Agnes: Oh, yeah, we have a website obviously, travengers.com.au, where we have, yeah, both social events and trips in Australia and overseas. And then we have, yeah, our Instagram travengers.au, or our Facebook, same there, travengers.au. And then there's also Divergence Travel, which is for the late diagnosed women, like myself and many others.

Agnes: So, yeah. And you can always also find me on LinkedIn at Agnes Abelsen.

Laetitia: Yes. Thank you so much for all you're doing. Agnes, it is such a joy to witness your journey and have you as a partner of Understanding Zoe, and really seeing the impact you're having in the world. So thank you, thank you.

Agnes: Thank you.

Agnes: Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure chatting with you.

Laetitia: Same. Hello, Zoe. Welcome for a new Neurodivergent Pulse episode.

Zoe: Hello.

Laetitia: So we just back from a trip, and the topic of the podcast about travel is making me ask you the following question: How do you feel when you travel, and what makes it easier for you to travel?

Zoe: It makes it easier when I have my headphones, when I have, like, a sensory area in the airport, when I have, like, a calm environment.

Laetitia: Okay. And how do you feel when you're travelling?

Zoe: Sometimes I feel kind of anxious and, like, it's gonna be, like, a lot of change, but then after a few weeks, it passes.

Laetitia: After a few weeks?

Zoe: Yeah.

Laetitia: Wow. Thank you, Zoe, for sharing today. Anything else you'd like to share about travelling?

Zoe: I like travelling most of the times, but when we only stay at that area for only a little bit of amount of time, it doesn't work for me.

Laetitia: Oh, you like to stay for a longer time in one place.

Zoe: Yeah.

Laetitia: Thank you for sharing today.

Zoe: Bye.

Laetitia: Bye. That's a wrap for Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com. Thanks for listening.