Wilderness within and ADHD with Kaya Lyons

Laetitia: Welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse, where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host, Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum and founder of Understanding Zoe. This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Laetitia: Hello Kaya, welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast. So today we are going to dive into a conversation about the wilderness, and more specifically the wilderness within. So before we start this conversation, I would love to give an opportunity for you to share with us what you do and how did you get this inspiration to speak more about the wilderness within.

Kaya: Beautiful. Thank you for having me. Wow, the question of introducing myself is a really difficult one, but I would say that I was really fortunate and blessed to be born on this country, in Gabby Gabby country in Queensland, and travelled around Australia for an entire year getting to know the wilderness all around us and the land that holds us every single day.

Kaya: And then amidst my journey was an elite gymnast, so I got to move my body and understand my body a lot more, before jumping into the world of occupational therapy, where there's a blend between wellness and mental health and physical health. And that led me to the aspects of blending, I guess, the wilderness outside all around Australia with the inside of each individual, and understanding better the body, mind, spirit connection. And that's me.

Laetitia: Oh my goodness, it is such a treat to have you on the podcast and to get to know you, because there is so many depth to you. So I really love that. So today, during this podcast episode, of course we can't have you for three hours. It's a time bound exercise, and if everyone wants to dive deeper we'll share a bit more later on how we can connect with you. But I have one question for you, which is: you talk sometimes about ADHD, and of course the journey through ADHD can be a wild journey. Is there any metaphor here to help us understand, when either we identify as ADHD or we have a child with an ADHDer, how we can grasp and understand the wilderness?

Kaya: Yeah, I guess that the concept of any term, any piece of language, whether it is a diagnosis of ADHD or whether it's the term using wild, to me every piece is signalling: I want to understand myself better and I want to understand those individuals around me. And so we try and put different terms and different personality traits, or different things that are going on, so that we can better understand ourself. For me the term wild is untamed, is freedom. And I see so many children and adults with ADHD that really represent and embody that wildness. And for me, when we dive a little bit deeper in understanding all of those different aspects, then we can learn to meet each other in relationship.

Laetitia: I love that. And full disclosure, I absolutely love how wild we can be sometimes, when we feel safe to be wild. So is there a connection between embracing our ADHD trait, or wild trait, or Autistic trait, however people...

Kaya: Yeah, I think that safety comes from understanding yourself and understanding how your nervous system responds to different things. Sometimes when we look at a term, we can limit ourselves. Well, that's my ADHD, that is my autism, whatever, oh, that's just who I am. And that can limit and confine and restrict. Whereas when we're looking at it from a positive lens, then for me it's an aspect of really, okay, these are aspects of how my nervous system is responding in this moment to this input, and these are some things that I can do. If that's signalling this is not safe for me right now, then this is what I can do to bring myself into that safety. Because without a sense of safety and security, that's when we pull on protective responses that aren't really us. They're responses to, in essence, protect life and all of our vital needs of life.

Laetitia: So let me ask you this question now, to clarify about the nervous system, because you talk a lot about it, and for me it was in one conversation we had together where you really explained to me nervous system and polyvagal theory. So would you mind kind of explaining this, of course in a simplified way, and if anyone wants to go deeper you can connect with Kaya separately, but how does this connection between the two help someone understand a bit more about their own nervous system or their child's nervous system?

Kaya: Yeah, I guess the terms we're trying to use, nervous system and these theories, are to help, initially, even metaphors in mental health, that sometimes when we hold on and identify to a term, we grip hold of it and it prevents us from being able to dive a little deeper. So when I speak about a nervous system, it's separate to self, which allows you to be a little bit more fluent in the understanding. So I think that's why we're using terms like that when we're communicating, it's like: let's just zoom away from this for a moment so that we can see the whole picture.

Kaya: And linking into that, when we look into, say, a nervous system, one part of our nervous system, or pathways, is how we respond when there is that embodied sense of safety. So in polyvagal theory, that's a safe and secure state. And within that state, when you're receiving information from the outside world, or you're receiving information from yourself, you're seeing that in a curious way, to explore and lean into that input. Whereas when your nervous system cues this is dangerous, so whether that information is sort of a perceived threat from outside or inside. I've got a stomach ache, or maybe outside there's something that is scaring me and I need to protect myself. Then the whole way in which you respond is completely different to when you're in that social engagement network. Instead of being curious and leaning in, you reflexively react and respond, and depending on how your nervous system believes in your body, will depend on whether you will fight and act out, whether you'll run away and try and get as far away from the stimulus as possible, or whether you'll mask and try to entertain and pretend that you're different and not there, or whether you'll collapse and try to be unseen.

Kaya: So yeah, I guess in polyvagal, and understanding that, the value is that we can't judge reactions as responses in terms of safety, because they're not. They're protection, and the child and individual look very different when they're actually in that nervous system state of safety and security.

Laetitia: Which is all that's happening beneath the surface, which is sometimes an individual experience, which you can't really apply, as you said, to then the action, or what people call the behaviour. Which is, you know, something that I think is very important for everyone to understand, because I remember in many conversations we had, especially in the design of the app, when we were tracking the behaviour, you were telling me that the behaviour is actually just one manifestation of something that's maybe coming from something else, and so we can't relate both. Do you want to add something to that, because you're explaining it so much better than I do?

Kaya: Yeah, I guess maybe it will be helpful, like an example, or...

Laetitia: Yeah, do that. Like that.

Kaya: I guess it's the aspect of, if we're looking at it from a behaviour, and really wanting to grip hold of that, and we probably want to grip hold of it because it's confronting and it's threatening to the individual who's witnessing it, or it evokes some form of emotion. So we naturally want to sort of shift to change that. The challenge is, how do we do that? And if we grip hold of that behaviour, for instance, if we grip hold of somebody who's grabbing, snatching something off somebody else when they want something, and we're trying to sort of teach, no, you've got to share, and do those. If the response is a reaction of, I need that for my own protection, by holding on to that object, that object helps me feel grounded. It helps me know where I am in space. And I say, well, you can't snatch it. That's like telling an individual to keep their hand on a hot stove. You wouldn't do it, because the need, the danger, is so great, that no matter how much I'm told to keep my hand on that stove, the nervous system is going to override that and take my hand away.

Laetitia: Yes, I really like your explanation, simple and way more impactful than lots of words. So, which is where we can go back to the wilderness within, which is this curiosity of what's happening within us, and how can one encourage themself, or a child, to explore this wilderness within, and maybe befriend it, or, I don't know how to say this, but coming at peace with all of those beautiful things that happen within us.

Kaya: Yeah, I guess the aspect for me, and tuning into the wilderness within, is about, when I explain those pathways of, okay, we've got this safety and security, and then we've got these protectors, there tends to be this lean in of, oh well, I've got to be safe and secure all of the time. And again, we grip hold of wanting that, which leads into, you've got to be calm and organised all of the time. I certainly am not one of those individuals, and I'm not sure I know someone who is able to do that all of the time, because there's certain stimulus sometimes that surprise us. I might not have eaten lunch, that's going to lead into some form of... so the brilliance is actually, and an organised system, is being able to identify early on. Ooh, hang on, this was a little bit spicy for me. And notice that within you, so that then your consciousness can actually meet your need, so that you don't go so far out of your window of capacity that you then really lash out, that you're cueing into those subtle changes within you.

Kaya: That's the journey, is it? It's actually identifying within yourself. Oh, my heart's maybe increasing with that. My breath just held. What are these? Oh, I feel a little bit hot in my face. So, what are these cues that are letting me know, hey, my nervous system's telling me something's going on here? If I can be present in those moments, not to change them, not to judge them, but just be present with them, your nervous system feels seen and heard, and it will do what it is designed to do, and shift naturally, without having to judge it or shame it. It will actually do that. It's about learning to be present with the experiences within your own system. And that, to me, is that wilderness within. Let's just dial back from trying to analyse, and actually dial into: what do we notice? What does it feel like, from a tingle, to a warmth, to a flow, to a tension? What is that going on? And then we can sort of remove those judgment pieces.

Laetitia: I love what you said, and definitely suspending the judgment and embracing the curiosity. What are some questions? Because I've witnessed you asking very beautiful, curious questions, and sometimes I take note, being like, those are the questions that I need to learn more to ask, rather than stepping into the judgments. Yet we see many families raising neurodivergent children, or parents being themselves neurodivergent, having this kind of sense of shame, sense of judgment, and maybe not asking the right question, or maybe not embracing this curious state that you always seem to embrace. So what could be some question that we could ask ourself, or to someone else, when something is happening, to especially do what you just did, which is having curiosity about the event, having curiosity about the sensation. Can you give us some questions?

Kaya: Yeah, that's an interesting one for me, because that in itself is, if you were to ask me, how do I stay curious? Yes. The curiosity is that I feel safe in staying curious. And so my advice to parents and to teachers is: how do you orientate your own self to safety in whatever moment's going on? If the bubbles have spilled all over the floor, it's a mess, and I'm not in any danger. So it's about orientating your own nervous system state, to remind your own system that these things, are they a threat or are they an inconvenience? And when I can register that I'm not under any threat, I can stay curious in my system.

Kaya: And I think the best teachers are young children, when you look at them and they've never experienced things before, and they're picking up, I know, along the shoreline of the ocean is beautiful, and they're picking up these snails or slime and algae, and really curious about everything. Yet as adults we're like, oh, don't touch that, that's disgusting. We've added judgment to it. So curiosity is, I've never understood this, or have a story behind this. That's the thing, rather than having a story behind: the child does it for this reason, they're trying to seek attention, they're trying to do that. What if you had no story? And if you had no story, you want to find out. Oh, tell me about this, what's that like for you? Those questions are genuine, they're not script, they're genuine. I'm really interested to know this, because this is a different experience. I might not have jumped in that ball pit with no clothes on, it's freezing cold, that's my nervous system. But if I drop that story and go, wow, what's that like for you?

Laetitia: Then I gain a deeper understanding and I can meet that individual. Wonderful, wonderful. I just love what you said about self, and then meeting other, once we've met ourself, which is definitely what the wilderness within allows. And so, is there one concept within the wilderness within that you'd like to bring to this podcast today? Because I really feel to me the wilderness within, I know when we're speaking about, first orientate to yourself and then meet, and I'm mindful that then that's putting more pressure on parents who might be listening today, and going, well, that's all good and well, but I've got this, this, this and this, and all of that, like how it's just not feasible for me.

Kaya: It's about meeting yourself in kindness. That the book, or a moment in the shower, can be thirty seconds, but truly be there in that experience. Know that everything else can wait for thirty seconds, a minute, and just be there. Everything else, what to say, how to be, how to help someone understand, all of that, for that small moment in time. Let it drift past, and truly be in your own wilderness, which for me is peace and harmony.

Laetitia: I love that, and thank you for saying that. Sometimes we put much more pressure on oneself, because definitely as parents we want to do the best we can, and sometimes it's adding more pressure, which prevents us from finding this connection with oneself. For us, sitting down and reading The Wilderness Within was such a beautiful experience of connection, actually, with self and in relationship. So yeah, I love that. So, I have one quick fire question for you, as I always ask the guests, is: Isabelle, what is your favourite book?

Kaya: My favourite book? Oh, this is one of the hardest questions, because it'll be a different answer every single day. I love books that have rhythm in them, because I feel like it instantly drops you into that aspect. So for me, I would probably say Giraffes Can't Dance is a really beautiful, melodic. It tells a story about someone who loses belief in their ability to do something, even though they love it, and a small little moment in time that captures the aspect of hope, to let go and just unleash. And yeah, in that story, I think that it just speaks volumes on being yourself and authentically feeling into this beautiful life.

Laetitia: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you, Kaya, for sharing this today with us. So if anyone who is listening to this wants to get a copy of The Wilderness Within, which is a best selling book, and I highly recommend it, and I know there is more books from the same collection coming, or connect with Active OT for Kids and learn more about your work, how can they connect with you?

Kaya: Yeah, so we have the website activeotforkids.com. So you can go on to that website, and I'd like to think it's pretty user friendly, and press the contact us page. On that website there's also a link to The Wilderness Within as well, so you can purchase one directly from there and pick it up in our clinic. Otherwise, if you're listening from abroad, you can go on to the Amazon website and purchase a copy of The Wilderness Within there.

Laetitia: Thank you. Thank you so much, Kaya, for joining us on the podcast today.

Kaya: No, thank you so much, Laetitia. I really enjoyed it.

Laetitia: Welcome to another Quick Pulse from Zoe on The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast. So Zoe, can you tell us, how is Kaya as an OT, from your experience?

Zoe: She's very fun. She's fair. She makes everyone feel welcome at my autism camp, and she always, she's always nice to me.

Laetitia: What is your favourite exercise that you do with Kaya?

Zoe: I would say jumping in the ball pit.

Laetitia: Yeah, you do love that. What is it creating within you, to do that?

Zoe: Jumping around.

Laetitia: Yes. Thank you, Zoe.

Zoe: Bye.

Laetitia: That's a wrap for The Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com.