Beyond Words: Different ways of communicating with Christina Schmidt

Laetitia: Welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse, where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers, and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host, Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum, and founder of Understanding Zoe. This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Laetitia: Hello Christina. Thank you so much for joining the podcast.

Christina: Thank you so much for having me. It's really a pleasure to spend time together, and yeah, just take time to have a chat. I'm looking forward to it.

Laetitia: Yes. And in a topic that I think is very funny for a podcast, we're talking about beyond words, and we're using words for this interview. But I really, really resonated with lots of the messages you shared during the Yellow Ladybugs conference, and your content online. So I'm very grateful that we're going to have you on The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast for you to share your brilliance with more listeners.

Christina: Yeah. Awesome. I think that's just fantastic. Um, just behind me actually, and I know the listeners can't see it but you can, I have a framed piece of artwork that someone did as they were listening to my story at the Yellow Ladybugs conference. And I just thought, oh my gosh, like this is just beautiful. It's almost hard to put into words because it's, you know, it's art, and it's, yeah. So I have that in the centre back behind me, just to be able to remind myself, and I'm just, it was such a gift to have.

Laetitia: And it's a treasure. Yeah,

Christina: It definitely is. When you see your work being put into art, and then the depth that it creates, and that's communication right there, right? That is how someone received my story and the message of my story, and their interpretation, and that's their expression of it. And I think that really highlights celebrating, recognising, honouring all forms of communication, and there is no hierarchy. You know, speech isn't at the top. We're not really, we're not aiming for that. And I think even speech pathologists who specialise, that's their thing, is supporting people with communication. Well, it needs to be broadly supporting communication and all the differences, the beautiful, the beautiful differences that come with it.

Christina: And yeah, sure, I've caught myself at times, and I've read from other speeches too, that they had a big reaction to their client when their client, who may be mostly non-speaking or minimally speaking, then use a word, like, oh yeah, there we go. And the reflection part of it, reflecting back, is, oh, I've actually communicated to my client that their oral language, their spoken word, is what's valued more than everything else that they've communicated with me. So, yeah, I love that I have that, that someone gifted that to me, that their communication, like it's that feedback. It's that reciprocation of, this is what I took, and yeah, so like, yeah, it's just really, really love.

Laetitia: My gosh, I love everything you said, and we're getting straight into it actually, because through what you said, you're sharing the power of communication beyond words, beyond the spoken words. So for any listeners who may be early on their journey, and they have a non-speaking member in their family, whether it's their kids or their partner or themselves, what kind of communication are we talking about beyond words? So we talk about art here, but what are the other things that can help us communicate as human, and we need to value as much as spoken word? I would love for you to share that with us.

Christina: Yeah. Well, I suppose I'm definitely going to get there, but then I'm thinking I've done like the ADHD thing where I've just jumped to something else, and no shame at all, because that's the way my neurology, that is what my brain wanted to do. So I let it do it.

Christina: But for the listeners, I'm going to introduce myself so you get to know a little who I am. There's so much to me, and I love that I'm really honouring that about myself now, and I'm not minimalising it, and that I'm still discovering everything that there is to me. But yeah, there's a lot to me, right? But from, I suppose, I bring a lot of lived experience into what I do. The professional side of me, and what people see on my social media publicly, is that I'm a speech therapist, and included in that is also, I'm an educator. I recognise now that I'm a storyteller and I'm an advocate as well, and I am the person behind, I run Free to Be Me Speech Therapy here in Naarm, which is the traditional name for Melbourne in Australia.

Christina: And for me, it really is however you'd like to interpret it. For me, I needed to get away from the exploitation of employment and really not putting limits on myself, because I felt so limited. I wanted to be free to be me, and the people that I have the honour of joining their communication journey and supporting them, I want them to feel free to be themselves, whatever that looks like for them. So with my practice, I really uphold neurodiversity affirming practice and care, as well as cultural responsiveness. And that means that I support people to communicate in the ways that they feel most authentic, whatever that might look like for them at any given time, and that feels accessible to them as well. And we explore a lot of that together, whether that's my clients who are children, or my clients who are adults, or anywhere in between at any age, that's what we can do together.

Christina: And what inspired this work is partly my own story. Again, I'm bringing clinical experience, but also my lived experience, into what I do, because I'm neurodivergent. I'm Autistic, and I'm ADHD, and I'm a Black woman. So I have a lot of intersectionality that comes into that, that makes up who I am. That is a part of my identity. So I can't separate those things, including in what I do for a living.

Christina: So communication has always, for me, been more than just words. It's beyond that. It's really like the movement. It's our energy. It's our rhythm. It's our expression, that's human. So it's the way that we connect before language even arrives for us. And it never really, perhaps, needs to. That's what it's about.

Christina: So I have a lot of passion, and my passion grew, and it still grows, from wanting to help people, wanting to help others, and especially, I've always had a calling towards children and families, because I want everyone to be able to feel seen. I want them to feel understood. I want them to feel free to express themselves in all the ways that communication can show up. So yeah, holding, being someone that has multiply marginalised feelings, knowing, being seen and heard, is huge for me. So yeah, I want to reflect that in the work that I do, and how I support the people that I get to work with.

Christina: So going back to beyond words, what does that mean, and what does that look like? I think there's a lot of nuance to it. I'm a person that, sometimes a part of my brain wants it to be really explicit, and really matter of fact, and just tell me the things. But I also know that reality doesn't, it's not always like that, it's not always as neat fitting as my brain wants it to be. But also the ADHD side of me is like, oh, come on, let's open up and allow for spontaneity and all of that. So, yeah, nuance belongs there too. So we're really talking about a full spectrum of communication.

Laetitia: Here we are again, like another spectrum, and communication has that too.

Christina: And yeah, beyond words, what this might look like is gestures. It might look like body movement and expression through that, facial expressions, or even lack of facial expressions, that's included. AAC, which is short for augmentative and alternative communication. Movement, I've mentioned before. Stimming, sounds, scripting, typing, writing, drawing, art, videos, like even video clips, sharing video clips and memes, and even silence. I always like to highlight that silence is a part of our communication too. Just sitting, and or standing, and or moving, and being with others, is also a form of communication, and can be super powerful. So let's not forget that. So it's really important, because communication is our connection, and connection doesn't always come out as oral speech, right? There's no hierarchy with this. When we recognise communication in its many forms, we're saying to others that I see you and I'm listening. Even if you're not speaking, I see you, and I hear you, I feel you. What you have to say, and what you communicate, is important.

Laetitia: Truly is. Thank you, Christina, for all of this, for introducing yourself, for sharing how you created Free to Be Me, and the intention, and also sharing with us other ways to see communication being expressed beyond words.

Laetitia: And something that I find very interesting, as I was listening to you, is I was trained to be a spokesperson when I was in a big corporate role, where of course I was leading AI and big data. At the time it was ten years ago, and during seven years I did that. And you know, it was like, oh, you will need to speak on stage, because being a woman in AI at the time was, wow, you know. So very often tokenism was happening, as we see tokenism happening a lot also in the neurodivergent space. But I don't want to go down that path. I'm trying to teach my brain to stay on topic.

Laetitia: But when I was trained for that, they were saying that actually 55 percent of communication when you're on stage is your body language. So even when you are on stage, speaking, sharing a message as a speaker, your body language is 55 percent of what people will retain. Then there is the tone of voice, and then there are the words and the message, and so on. But actually the most important is your body language and the silence. Exactly what you said, having those moments of silence. So even as a keynote speaker, as a spokesperson, and so on, we are trained on honouring silence and using your body to communicate a message effectively, in spoken word.

Laetitia: So I think we need to really change that approach, which is that speech is at the top of the pyramid. Because even though, of course, in your work, and that's why you're here, it is not at the top of the pyramid. How many times have I heard someone telling me, what are the words that they used, what spoken words did they use today? Please express yourself. But it's not express yourself with your body, or through art, or through typing or writing. It's express yourself, like, use your words. How many times have we heard that?

Christina: Last week when I was on holiday, a little boy was having a meltdown, and his mum was just pushing him, being like, what's happening, use your words. And I was like, he's having a meltdown.

Christina: I literally heard that same thing yesterday for a client who became dysregulated, and quickly went into flight mode, ran away, and a school staff member saw. I was walking, and I saw where he was, and I was making sure to give him his space and his time, because he's not wanting someone to just crowd his space. And yeah, the school staff member said, oh, use your words, you have such beautiful words. And I'm like, you know, we were walking away after we were able to support co-regulation, and I said, I know that words can be hard to use, you know, when your battery is low, right, when it's been drained. So, you know, it was a big drain. And the really beautiful thing that happened is the school staff member said, oh, yeah, that's right, and I'm sorry that I pressured you. Which was so awesome. It was so awesome that that was able to happen, and immediately.

Christina: So, interestingly, the 55 percent, my interpretation and my wondering is that that probably is for maybe a majority, and possibly, yeah, I just wonder if that's like, who did they get that percentage from?

Laetitia: Pretty sure. Yeah. Pretty sure it's neurotypical. Yeah.

Christina: Yeah, the sample size was, because I'm thinking, well, I know, and here are people that belong in the margins, and the nuance here is that there are people with dyspraxia, and their body might move in a way that they're not wanting to, but it doesn't mean that they're communicating something. Like their body language might move differently to what they're actually wanting to communicate, or for some people they're not able to use their body to directly communicate. So yeah, I'm like, oh, that 55 percent, I wonder what sample size, who were included in that sample size.

Laetitia: I'm pretty sure it's mostly neurotypical, and, as I said, neuronormative. But it's really interesting to see that even in that space,

Christina: the spoken word is actually a lower percentage than anything. I don't remember the exact number, but I think the spoken word is only like 5 to 7 percent. So what you say is actually not as important as the other elements in your presentation. But yeah, definitely we need to have a sample that is including intersectionality, neurodivergent folks, and making sure that we are considering this as well.

Laetitia: I know, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I wasn't trying with neurodivergent for,

Christina: but I was, but I'm also like, oh, I wonder,

Laetitia: I wonder.

Laetitia: So as we were talking about teachers, and some of them may be listening, or even parents, what are some of the practical ways that they can encourage or validate different forms of communication at home and in the classroom, to especially avoid what we're talking about? Yes, you said this word, like how many times have I seen on TikTok or Instagram, some people were like, or on Reddit, oh, my son or my daughter, they used their first words, they expressed this, and you're like, they were communicating before. So how can we help them? What are some practical ways that you'd like to share with them, whether it's parents, teachers, or therapists, who are on their journey to be affirming and supporting other ways of communication, for them to do that?

Christina: Yeah, I think it's challenging, I suppose, societal norms and assumptions, the value that's placed on speech. And look, I do want to be able to, I don't want to take away the excitement that people experience when their loved one, the child, uses their first word, because that's their feeling to own. And also, there are also people whose children are non-speaking, so they're not going to hear that, and there can be some grief there. And in addition to that, they're understanding and getting to know all of the other very valid forms of communication that their child does as well.

Christina: So yeah, I think what ends up happening, it's one of those communication myths, that speech gets equated to intelligence. So if someone's speaking, then, and also the ableism that's there as well. So, you can speak, so you're able to do X, Y and Z, but that's simply not true. And the ways that I listed before, in which other developed forms of communication, including gestures, and the body language, and the silence, and using augmentative and alternative means of communication, it shows that all communication counts.

Laetitia: Yeah.

Christina: And that expression, it's how that person is best able to express themselves, if that's movement, if that's sound that they make. So I suppose, what ways can parents and educators uplift the other ways of communicating, and even being aware and acknowledging, the insight into knowing that, oh, okay, this is different to what I know, but that's okay. And it's probably addressing their own internal biases about communication first.

Christina: But I think it's getting curious. It's even reflecting and asking yourself, how does this person who I'm supporting, and wanting to continue to support as well as I can, how are they best getting their message across now? And that best can differ and fluctuate, but how are they doing that now? Is it through body language? Are they parting away from me to indicate that they don't want to do something? Are they pushing something away? Because that's communicating as well. That's saying, and that's so powerful. It's saying that that person doesn't want something, or they're not liking something.

Christina: And yeah, so getting curious, and taking time to reflect, and working out, well, how can I, as a communication partner, continue to let them know that the ways that they are communicating already are super valid, and that they're important, and that I'm going to continue to support their communication, no matter what. And I think, sometimes if the person feels, if it's comfortable for them, it can even be like mirroring their communication. And also knowing that maybe not everything they do is meant to communicate with someone else, like maybe noises, or gestalts, chunks of language that they echolalia that they use, it may not always be for another person.

Christina: But yeah, sometimes even mirroring, kind of saying, like, I see you, and I hear you, and I sense that what you're saying to me is important. Pausing, observing, trying, and if that didn't work for that person, you can always repair it. Just like that staff member saying, oh, I'm sorry about that, I put that pressure on you, because we can repair communication too, and that's a part of communication. It shows that person, hey, I want to do my best by you, and this is a learning process. It's reciprocal, and this is what it's all about.

Christina: So I suppose that's what I think of, just slowing down. Really slow down, tune in, get curious, reflect. It's the micro moments. It's the micro moments of communication, when we're going fast, and we don't see it, we don't realise it. It can be a quick glance. It could be that person pausing. It could be a shift in their body, and they are telling us so much more than words ever could. So when we take that time, and we allow ourselves to be curious, like, I wonder, ask that question to yourself, I wonder what it is that they're communicating to me.

Laetitia: I love it. I love how simple it sounds, and at the same time how it challenges the norms, and this go go culture, and answer straight away, and react quickly. When I was on an interview yesterday for media outlets, and I just said, I just need a minute, because of course they ask you a question which you haven't prepared, and to reply. And I was so proud of myself, because of my own ableism, I tend to just go, go, and like, this is a tricky question. I want to answer it in a way that feels right, so I'm just going to ask for a pause and let myself. But it's this norm that is put on all of us, is sometimes making us forget that we may have different ways of expressing ourselves.

Christina: But what I was thinking, well, firstly, go you, because as adults, and being later realised and later diagnosed, there is a lot of guilt and shame and internalised ableism that we need to combat, work out, figure out, and unravel, and all of that. So to honour the fact that we need extra processing time, and to make that clear, and to have been able to advocate for yourself in that moment, and recognise and go, oh wow, I did it, and look how that really supported me. Because it's not always easy to do that. But it showcases that even the delayed communication, due to needing that extra processing time, what you communicated was still valid. And there's that asynchronous communication as well, sometimes coming back to something that was spoken about five minutes before, or communicated five minutes before, because that's just the way, difference in brains, and that's just the way that it works, and it's still okay.

Laetitia: Yeah, I think that's really, really awesome.

Christina: Thank you.

Laetitia: And I love also what you said about asynchronous, about my own autism. We knew about my ADHD since I was little, but my parents decided not to tell me, it's a podcast in itself, but you know, I had,

Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Laetitia: But the autism came later. But it's something, the asynchronous communication piece. For a long time, I was replying, a meeting, I was replying, even a podcast interview, this is what I wanted to say, but then the meeting is done, the podcast is recorded, the interview is finished.

Laetitia: And yeah, something I did for this interview, I was like, can I read the questions, and sometimes some journalists don't want to do that, but some of them may do that, and it's always challenging for inclusion. And I was like, can I just read what you write, and just give my feedback if anything needs editing? And I was like, because I'm autistic, and sometimes I have a difference in processing information, so I would love the opportunity if it's possible, and they said yes. So I will be able to read and align myself to edit. So again, it is this self advocacy, and allow all this. So I love that.

Laetitia: But we are getting out of time. So I just want to, because my commitment to the community was, I'll promise I do it in 20 to 30 minutes, which I'm struggling to do.

Christina: I know, aim, but it can be tricky.

Laetitia: Can be tricky. But I really want to ask you this question, around the biggest barrier that you see, whether it's at school, or in therapy, or within the community, that limits access and understanding about communication happening beyond words. What are the main barriers? What are those misconceptions and elements that we need to change, as advocate, change maker, or anyone who is joining this as an ally and listening to it, and like, okay, I can help with this.

Christina: Mm. Okay, before I do that, I'm going to take my time. I know that you've got the 20 to 30 minutes for community, but as a Black, Autistic, ADHDer, woman, I'm going to absolutely do the asynchronous communication right now. I'm honouring that about myself.

Christina: I wanted to get back to just one thing, for teachers, educators, people wondering, how do I support someone who communicates differently to what I'm used to, which might be just spoken language, right? Like they're humming, or they're using a quote from a favourite show. In addition to what I said before, like recognising, acknowledging, and expanding on it, knowing there's no need to correct it. And in addition to that, adding on that visual component, like supporting them with visuals, photos, language boards, or core word boards, and even your body, like I said before, mirroring their body movements. You can nod, you can pause and wait for them so they can process. I think the biggest gift that you can give is to listen, and the multiple ways you can listen, including with your heart. So, yeah, I just wanted to add that in.

Christina: The barriers, the accessibility, I'm getting back to that now. So, the biggest barriers that I see are, one, systemic, and another one, probably attitudinal, where the bias, our internal biases, come from, and can dictate the way that we go about and initially see things. Because that hierarchy, where speech, or the pyramid, speech is still sitting at the top, what ends up happening is that's filtered into school expectations, and at times, still therapy goals, and even funding systems.

Christina: So, another thing is there is a lack of access to AAC, especially devices, getting them funded, the training, the representation, especially culturally and linguistically diverse families and AAC users. There's just such still a lack of access and support for it. And accessibility, it's not just about tools, it is also about the mindset, and the inclusion, and the equity. So, we're wanting to make sure that every communicator has both the right tools and the right support people.

Laetitia: Yeah, I love that. So good. Oh my goodness. You know what, I've been going, and this is my PDR, I'm like, why did I commit to that? I'm going to change the rule. I just really want to hear from you about your vision and passion for this. But if you had one message for professionals, or maybe for policy makers, about why communication diversity matters, what would it be?

Christina: Mm, that. And yes, you are totally allowed to change, and you're totally allowed to do that. Communication is a human right, not a privilege. So when we limit what, air quotes, counts as communication, we silence people, and we erase them, or we erase parts of them and their identity and who they are. But when we open up to communication diversity, what we're doing is we're inviting, we're calling in more empathy and creativity and understanding into our world. So really what I would love is, let's invest in training, and representation, and access, because with inclusion, it doesn't happen through just awareness alone, there's no action in that. It happens through action.

Laetitia: I could stay on this for hours. There's so many bubble thoughts that came to me. So I'm sure we'll have a full on conversation for sure. And I can't wait to get a chance to meet you again in person. What is the one way, or multiple ways, that you express yourself best beyond words? I always love to ask a personal question to our guests.

Christina: Yeah. Okay. For me, through rhythm, creativity. So for me it's like music and dance can be really big for me. Scripting, or having gestalts from songs and such. Yeah, I like to get in touch and maintain my creative side, and my inner child, always, I make room for her. She has room now, and she didn't always. So, there's a freedom in that, that speech doesn't always hold. So, there we go.

Christina: So, even when I'm with a client, I will tell them, like one of my clients said, oh, you're just so much fun, like you're not like other adults. And I'm like, well, because my inner child is always with me. So, we're moving around together. I'm humming along with them. And that's communication in action. It's happening. It's a way of me being able to say to them, I'm here, I'm feeling this, I'm connected. So, yeah, I could go on and on. I'm going to leave it there for now.

Laetitia: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And how can people who are listening to this podcast, like, oh my gosh, Christina is magic, I'd love to connect more, how can they learn more about you, connect about your work? What are the best slides?

Christina: I would love, I love for people to connect with me. I love for people to let me know what resonates with them, or whatever it might be. So they can find me at Free to Be Me Speech Therapy, on multiple platforms, Instagram, Facebook, and my website. I have a newsletter now to subscribe to and keep up with the latest with me, because I'm usually around the world presenting, and on different podcasts, and I'm getting myself into all the things that interest me. There's no limits. So, I have resources, I've got a shop on my website. And in my newsletter, I'll share reflections and affirming supports that honour all the ways of communication, and wherever else that might flow on to. Feel free to reach out and connect with me. I'd love that.

Laetitia: I love it. And you're such an approachable human. So I really appreciate you for everything you do for the community, and yeah, you're an amazing advocate. So thank you, thank you for coming on the podcast today.

Christina: My pleasure. I appreciate you.

Laetitia: on The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast. As you can hear, she's excited. So, Zoe, what are your favourite ways to communicate when you don't want to speak?

Zoe: I could send you messages, do hand movements, write and scribble.

Laetitia: Thank you. That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing. And I love when you find those ways to communicate your needs without having to speak, if you don't feel like it, because I do too have moments where I don't like talking, so I do the same. So, how do you know that someone is really listening to you, even when you're not using words?

Zoe: They would say more than just yes and no. And they would tell me.

Laetitia: They would tell you if they understood you. Yes. So, she's nodding her head, which is also a beautiful way to communicate, when you communicate with your body movement. And what helps you feel safe to share what's on your mind, whether it's with your body, with your hands in writing, or with your words?

Zoe: When I'm with my family and the ones that I love.

Laetitia: Aw, that's very cute. Thank you, Zoe, for joining us for your little pulse on The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Zoe: Yay.

Laetitia: That's a wrap for The Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com.