Building relationships with neurodivergent young people with Isobel Ziatas

Laetitia: Welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse, where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite-sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host, Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum and founder of Understanding Zoe. This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Laetitia: Hello Isobel. Thank you so much for making the time to join us on The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Isobel: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to speak to you about something I'm really passionate about. Okay.

Laetitia: And you have so much wisdom and pearls of insights to share with our listeners. So before we start, I would love for you to quickly introduce yourself for anyone who is listening to the podcast and it's the first time that they came across your work. Who are you and how did you end up doing the work that you're doing now?

Isobel: I am Isobel Ziatas. I'm a registered psychologist over in WA at the Kid Clinic. I need to think about what else to say now. You know, this is a question I should know because I say it all the time. I am very relationship focused, I think. And I've been very lucky with my previous roles before becoming a psychologist to have the opportunity to build a lot of relationships with a lot of different people, and especially with neurodivergent young people. So yeah, I guess that's where I ended up.

Isobel: I actually, funny story or not, you guys can decide, my mum's a speech pathologist, and so from day dot I was working with her, supporting different young people with different communication differences. And so I really wanted to be a speech pathologist when I was younger, and then when it got to year 12 and I finished my exams, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and my mum sat me down and she said, you just want to be a speech pathologist because that's what I am. I think you'd be better as a psychologist, and she was right. I really enjoy it, unfortunately. So there you go. That's how I got into psychology, I guess.

Laetitia: I love it. So you've been really in the space for quite some time, which really shows your dedication to care and your deep listening. Wonderful.

Laetitia: Thank you for sharing that. And you mentioned how you are really relationship based, which is really the topic about today, which is how can we build relationships with neurodivergent young people, and can work also for older young adults, but how can you share some examples of moments where you built trust with young people, and how, and what made them feel safe, and how can we really create those beautiful relationships, in any way those individuals will present their communication needs. How can we really support them?

Isobel: I find trust a really tricky word. I'm not going to lie. Because I think, I don't know of any of the young people that I have the privilege to support actually trust me. I feel like they might be comfortable in our relationship and in the space that we've created together. However, I can't say whether they trust me or not. When they do give me the opportunity to show up consistently and might share something with me that they're not comfortable being shared with parents, for example, that's when I can kind of see, okay, maybe there is a level of trust here. Or maybe, well, I hope that this is coming from a place of comfort and not like they feel like they have to share it with me just because of my role and the explanation of what we do in sessions.

Isobel: But I think one situation, I guess, or one young person, well, not just one young person, with a lot of the young people that I support, there is this shift. For some it might take three years, especially the PDAs that I support, it might take a really long time to build that connection, and then for others it's a bit quicker. It just depends on the young person.

Isobel: But I've had young people come into sessions and just blurt everything out without me even prompting them, and just sit there and go, okay, you're usually quiet for 50 minutes, so this is a change. Or I've had other young people where it's been very them led, and then one day I might suggest something like, oh, that reminds me of this thing or that thing, or that's so interesting you brought that up because there's this theory called blah blah blah that it reminds me of, and they actually engage with that. That's when I can kind of see there's comfort. Well, that's what I hope. But it's hard to speak to just one moment, because you kind of see little snippets throughout, and then eventually you have a young person in session with you who is content with the fact that you'll be consistent in your responses, or content with the fact that there is a level of comfort and safety in the relationship. And that's all I can really hope for, to be honest. I feel like I've totally forgotten what the actual question is, so feel free to redirect me if you need.

Laetitia: That's great. The question was about finding a moment. What you said is actually there is not so much a moment, it's something you build over time, and then you notice a subtle shift at some points, and that's where you may feel that there is a sense of safety and potentially a sense of trust, which is harder to interpret, which I really love your nuance over there. So I guess the follow on question to that is, for anyone who's listening to this and may have struggled building a relationship, a healthy, safe, trustworthy relationship with PDA or any other neurodivergent individuals, how can they create that sense of safety? And I know we need to be patient, which is always a struggle for each and every one of us, but what are the things that you've seen, based on your experience working, to create or enable over time that sense of safety and trust?

Isobel: I think that there's a few things right there. I mean, there's all the theories and all the different formalised ways in which we can do this. So PDA Society has some wonderful things about building that connection and ways of being with PDAs, for example. And then Yellow Ladybugs have some excellent ways of supporting neurodivergent young people, within their different resources, there's so many resources out there.

Isobel: I was really lucky to do my placement in the Department of Communities in WA, so Department of Child Protection, so working with kids in care. And one thing that they did present there as a way of being is the PACE approach by Dr Dan Hughes. And it's playful, accepting, curious and empathetic. And so every interaction, that's just kind of what's in the back of my mind, that it's okay to be a bit playful. Playful actually brings us back down to our regulatory kind of window of tolerance or eventual label and so forth.

Isobel: Curiosity is the biggest one for me. So curiosity being, I'm not going to put any type of explanation on what I see until a young person's kind of implied something, or until I know enough about the young person, through what I've observed and what we've chatted about, to be able to make hypotheses and get them to check and confirm whether or not they're accurate.

Isobel: The PACE approach though was one that I am very connected with, as it does kind of encompass all of those pieces that are really important to engage the young person with, the key, I guess it's also achievement, you know, just taking your time, like you said, time is so important, you don't want to rush someone. I have a rule in my therapy room, of, until a young person, and this is for all young people, even PDAs, until they say no to me, I don't push for any therapeutic work, because I want to make sure that they're able to get the consent 100%, and that they can really lead the sessions in a way that isn't causing them further distress or anything like that.

Isobel: So say the PACE approach, attunement, you can tell when a young person's not having a good time. Even if you know someone well enough, you can tell, even the really high masking young people, when they might not be having a super great time, or they might not want to be there. But lots of young people I support, whose eyes go really wide, or you just see subtle shifts in their body language, it'll go from, you know, colouring in, to colouring in really tense instead. So it's just that curiosity, curiosity again, being really patient, matching their energy and attuning with them, and just keeping an eye out for anything you notice, so that you're not being another demand, or being less of a demand.

Laetitia: I love it. I really love that you mentioned the PACE approach, and everything you shared there makes total sense, and it's definitely something, sometimes in our life we're so rushed that we don't remember those elements. So it's a very good way for us to just remember curiosity, playfulness, empathy, like really remembering those concepts and applying them on a day to day basis is essential. You want to say something?

Isobel: Yeah, I do. And I want to say that I'm very privileged in my role, because I see a young person for 50 minutes every fortnight or a month or weekly, depending on what their needs are at that point in time. Whereas I think a lot of parents or teachers, even, you know, it's 24/7, or it's seven to eight hours a day at a time, and you might be supporting multiple things or doing multiple things. But I am very privileged in terms of the relationships I can build, because it's myself and a young person, me completely able to be present, no other distractions. So it is a lot easier for me, if I wanted to say that, as in, I have less extraneous variables placed on me. So I think there does need to be a bit of compassion to ourselves as well, sometimes when we don't get it right. And that repair is probably the most important aspect of any relationship, because it shows, you know, I can still show up even though this rough thing has happened, or even though we've had a bit of a fight, I'm still here, we're still connected.

Laetitia: Yeah, definitely. The repair part is essential, which links us to the double empathy approach. And when we have expectations, as parents, as teachers, potentially some therapists may have expectations, they may not, you know, really be open to letting the child lead the session. How can they check whether their expectations are realistic and within the young person's capacity? It's really an important reminder, because this is again pushing some neuronorms onto different children who may have different support needs. And so I really want us to learn from you about this, and how could we do that? Can you offer any short script around curiosity, or can you offer any interaction style that may help, and we can again have an approach that is also highlighting for PDA, because we have a lot of parents listening to the podcast who have PDA children, and potentially because Understanding Zoe was born for Zoe with AuDHD and PDA, so I don't know if that's why, and being PDA myself as well, I've developed a monotropic brain hyperfocus on PDA, but yeah, whatever works for you to answer this question.

Isobel: Yeah, okay. So the double empathy, and things we can kind of do or say or be in those moments, and acknowledging the expectations and so forth. I listen to a lot of audiobooks, and I can't remember which book, oh, Low Demand Parenting, and I don't know if this is initially Amanda's own concept that she's come up with, or if she's adapted it from someone else, but she does talk in there about, when we're placing a demand, there's an expectation under the demand, and under the expectation the adults need, and that was helpful, it finally gave me the words to be able to explain that to people, which was really helpful, because prior to that I would draw a really dodgy iceberg, one for the child and one for the parent, and be like, oh, so you're here and this is here, but now it's a bit easier with this one.

Isobel: I think in the moments though, there is this, like, if you're leading from an authentic curiosity, for example, you're going to be leading from a place that is compassionate too. So you're going to be leading from an unbiased perspective, where you are not assuming something based on other knowledge or other experiences that you've had with this young person or with other young people. And I think that's really valuable, being able to be curious from that unbiased perspective, because the curiosity is the key component of that double empathy, in my experience, like giving the other individual the opportunity to share insights into the way that they communicate, and the best way to connect with them, is opening the floor for curiosity for that double aspect, saying, oh, now that I know that you prefer to type rather than use speech or X, Y and Zed, we're just going to be typing. Or now that I know that, I mean, actually, here's an example that just popped up. I have a therapy voice, and I have a therapy voice for different age groups. And my younger age group, so the four to sevens, it's very like high pitched, like this, it's really engaging, we're going to do this and blah blah blah. And I just didn't even realise that I do it, until one day a young person came in, it may have been our second or third session, and they just looked at me dead in the eye and they go, the voice that you do is really annoying. I was like, oh okay, that's really good to know. But now that I know that, I can use my little voice again, which is so much easier for me.

Isobel: I think it's providing opportunities for feedback from the other young person, being curious with them about what is suitable for them, or hypothesising with them if it is hard for them to deal with those, you know, bigger questions or those interoceptive or open-ended questions. And then within all of that, having a mantra for yourself. And my mantra is, I know nothing. That's my mantra. So when I'm going into a conversation, it's, I know nothing about them. Other ones that I've liked in the past are, what is the most generous explanation for this interaction. So this works really well with annoying siblings of my own. If they're being really annoying, I kind of sit there and I go, all right, what is the most generous explanation for them being so annoying right now?

Isobel: So, and then, yeah, it can be really helpful. I think I'm very lucky, that, like I said before, with sessions it's 50 minutes every fortnight generally, and so it is really easy to leave demands out the door, and I'm very open and honest and transparent about how I work with young people, with families, prior to engaging with the young person themselves, just to ensure that everyone's on the same page and there's no surprises when there's minimal therapeutic work being completed. But I see that as the key theme, so what does keep me grounded in those moments, the most generous perspective or the most generous explanation, and the genuine curiosity, other than just curiosity about why the expectations stop being met, because that still is biased, because it's expecting an expectation to be met. Whereas when you're going with genuine curiosity, you can be a bit more flexible with your expectations and so forth. Yeah.

Laetitia: I love it.

Isobel: Thank you so much. I love this question. For me it really resonated, like my whole body was saying, oh, that's a very good question and I will remember it, like, what is most generous.

Laetitia: From this, like, how can I see this from the most angle. So you mentioned it quite earlier in the conversation about the repair and how important the repair is, and how when we go for, or when we get, you know, angry, or we let our emotion run the show, having this ability to embrace genuine curiosity, and seeing what is the most generous angle, which can happen quite a lot. And I just want to say to anyone listening to this podcast, if that happens to you, there is no shame. It's what happens to every one of us, and this is what makes us human. But how can we restore the connection then? How can we repair? What are some examples, either of a script again, or a question, or ways we could repair this relationship? I know in our family we sing this, this Ho'oponopono song, I never know how to say it, it's sorry, please forgive me, thank you, I love you, and I start singing it, and then Zoe or Lou, whoever I'm doing the repair with, will sing it with me when they're ready, and it's just a sign, and then we cuddle. But this is our way in our own family, because we went to a kotan concert, and there was this song which was play with kan, it just created this connection. So we know that this is how we repair, and then there is a conversation after that about what I did wrong, or when I let myself be run by something else. So I'm just curious for you to share any example or any script that could help our listeners.

Isobel: I've messed up a lot of times in sessions, in terms of there are some young people where I've pushed too quickly with, there are some other young people where I haven't pushed quickly enough with, there's some young people who have been very dysregulated in our sessions as well. And the repair there is more about de-escalating the dysregulation more than anything.

Isobel: Yeah, there's so many different ways that someone can repair. And I love that song so much, it's so cute that that's the way that you do it, because it is providing that space for autonomy as well with the repair. I guess for me, my biggest, I guess, yeah, it's tricky because it really depends on the young person, and I feel like I say that a lot, but it really does. So I think the best way to repair is whatever feels authentic to the individual, because if it's inauthentic they will be able to tell, and there will likely be a need to repair the same thing again in the near future, because it's not from a place of genuine recognition of what was going on.

Isobel: I write letters to clients sometimes. I write a lot of letters to my personal connections when there's a need for repair. I think that is one way that does feel really authentic to me, because sometimes I do shut down and don't have the words for things, especially with personal connections, and I just cannot engage in that kind of emotional conversation. So writing it down and sending it through as a text or as a formal letter and so forth has been really, really helpful for me in that aspect.

Isobel: Texts are a great way for any young people at home, as a checkin, as a mini repair, however you want to frame it, because it is then giving them that space, that autonomy, to respond when they feel like it. But also it's way less demanding than that face to face conversation, which can be absolutely terrible. Sending memes is also a great one, because it brings that playfulness in as well. Playfulness is really regulating for some young people, and that can be a great way to do it. And there's so many really cute little cat memes out there that so many individuals would happily engage with too.

Isobel: But I think in terms of, there can be variability in how you do it, but then for me the key steps is acknowledging what your experience was in the situation, not from a place of, I felt this because you did that, but just from a place of, I was feeling this and this is how I responded, and this is what I recognise now, and also giving them the space to share what was going on for them as well in that moment.

Isobel: And the whole point of repair is to repair, and you can't repair if you're then putting expectations on in the repair, or shaming in the repair, because that is then just going to lead to some really tricky to pick apart feelings later, and a way harder time to build a sustainable relationship.

Laetitia: Yes. So I think that's the key thing, that autonomy that you do so beautifully. I absolutely love that little song. The space and time, so not doing it immediately, not doing it during the situation. Doing it at nighttime is a great time. Doing it in the car is a great time as well. It doesn't have to be the same day either. And we do see that for a lot of neurodivergent folk, the stress is held in the system for a lot longer, depending on the situation, and doing it in a really easy pace that feels authentic to your system too.

Isobel: The NEST approach, by, I think it's, I can't remember what it's by right now, it's maybe Spectrum Genie or something like that, they have a really excellent guide that I send to all of my families, and share with all the different schools and organisations that I go do trainings at, about how to support neurodivergent young people during meltdown. And NEST is an acronym, I can never remember what it stands for, but the N is for during the meltdown, and that is nurture. Everything else is for the repair afterwards. So I will be sure to send that to you so that it can go into the notes for this episode. Plus everything else that I've already discussed, that's not, yeah, because that's a really nice one, with some practical ways to do things as well, that you can then go, no, that's not authentic to me, oh yes, that is authentic.

Laetitia: I love it. Thank you. Thank you for your generosity and offerings. So we just have time for our quick fire question. So I had prepared a question about a small ritual that helps you with your energy bank, or if you prefer you can share with us, because we were talking about this at the beginning of the podcast, about which fidgets you use most at the moment, because we were talking about this at the beginning, I was like, oh, I love this, because we all have so many different fidgets. So I can start. But right now I'm using this 3D printed dragon, it's spiky, it's just, I don't know, I really like it at the moment. Again, sometimes I'm more into fluffy things or squishy hair, but right now this is what I like.

Isobel: I love that. I love that. I'll show you my, this kit goes with me everywhere. It lives in my car so I can take it to some clinics. But this is my fidget kit. And I lend out different fidgets to young people that I support, so they can try them out in the wild before buying them themselves. And my favourite one has been lent out. And that's okay, I'll be okay. But I think my next favourite one at the moment is my little, I bought this years ago actually, but it's my poor and pure one, and it's just so satisfying, it's so satisfying. But I agree, sometimes I'm more of like a squishy person, I don't like sticky things on my hands. And that's okay. But I've got a few, I don't have any in here right now, my gum drop is usually my favourite as well,

Laetitia: which is also this one here. One of these as well.

Isobel: Like these ones. I seek a lot of proprioceptive input, and that is actually the way that I do have a little energising moment in between, it's just to push against a wall or squeeze one of these really hard, just to get my muscles moving, but also down regulate myself a bit, which is helpful I guess.

Laetitia: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. So for anyone who is listening to this podcast and like, oh my goodness, I want to learn more about Isobel's work, where can they find out more about you?

Isobel: I think the best place to start is probably the website, to be honest, and also socials. Our website's currently getting a bit of a revamp, so it doesn't have everything in there about all the services and so forth, but we do run things like different events, different parent support sessions as well, which I find really, they're probably one of my favourite things to do. And a bunch of other free resources and so forth that we put up every month too. So that is just our socials, the Kid Clinic, and then our website too. But yeah, there's not much else to say. Our blogs, we have some excellent clinicians here, I must say, who create some gorgeous content, which makes it really easy to send things through as a therapist later on, when you're talking about something like, oh, we've got a blog post, let me just send it through. So that's also a good place to start and find out a bit more about a range of topics actually.

Laetitia: I love it. Thank you so much Isobel for coming on the podcast today, and for sharing your insights and your passion for relationships and PDA and everything neuro related. Thank you.

Isobel: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Laetitia: Welcome to another pulse from Zoe on The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast. So Zoe, today we're talking about relationships. What makes you know that someone is a really good friend to you?

Zoe: Well, they actually understand my feelings and they don't laugh at me when I get stuff wrong.

Laetitia: Thank you. That's a green flag friend.

Zoe: Yeah.

Laetitia: And what helps you trust someone new, a new friend, a new person?

Zoe: When they look very nice, they smile at me, and they tell me their name, and they look very joyful.

Laetitia: Okay, that helps you feel you can trust them.

Zoe: Yeah.

Laetitia: Thank you for sharing. And what do you wish adults remembered about being themselves, a neurodivergent kiddo?

Zoe: I think they should remember that they are all different, and they don't know exactly what to do sometimes, and they can't do exactly what you know how to do.

Laetitia: Thank you. Thank you for sharing, Zoe.

Zoe: Bye.

Laetitia: Bye everyone. That's a wrap for The Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com.