Challenging autism myths and reclaiming autistic identity with Jocelyn Green

Laetitia: Welcome to Neurodivergent Pulse, where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers, and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite-sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host, Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum, and founder of Understanding Zoe.

Laetitia: This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was, and always will be Aboriginal land.

Laetitia: Hello, Jocelyn. Thank you so much for joining the Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Jocelyn: Thank you so much for having me.

Laetitia: I absolutely love how social media can connect people all around the world when we see each other content, and I came across your content, and I absolutely love the take that you have around your own lived experience.

Laetitia: So before, you know, everyone going through the question, I would love for you to have an opportunity to share a bit more about your own lived experience and what was it like for you to arrive to understanding yourself as an AuDHD-er and while being already within academia and working in that space?

Jocelyn: Okay, well it's really interesting 'cause you see so many people like figuring this out in like a lot of different ways. For me, I had to have other people tell me. So, like, about a little, like either around the time I like started high school or like halfway through, all of my friends are neurodivergent and like they've been like diagnosed since childhood.

Jocelyn: So they're like, "Hey, we're thinking that you like might have ADHD," because a lot of like my behaviours aligned with a lot of what they were experiencing. So like they suggested the idea to me. And I didn't really have a concept of like ADHD or autism at the time, so I started to look into it, not like super seriously, but I was like, "Oh yeah, maybe I have ADHD."

Jocelyn: And then one of my friends who also has ADHD was like, "I don't think you have ADHD, but I do think you have autism." So like a few years of like very light research, I didn't really start to get serious about it until my senior year of high school where I like really started struggling with like school and getting my work done.

Jocelyn: Because the way my school worked, we were like in all AP classes, so the work was a lot more rigorous. There was a lot more pressure, and with college applications as well. So keeping up with work was significantly harder than it had been in the past. So I was at that point where it's like I'm going to try to pursue an ADHD diagnosis.

Jocelyn: I tried at the time. It did not go very well. I didn't really get through the whole process, but I had kind of gotten to that point where it's like I'm pretty sure I had ADHD. So I didn't try again until my second semester of college where I'm like, "I'm going to bite the bullet. I'm going to spend the money.

Jocelyn: I'm going to get an assessment." I got assessed, and I did get diagnosed with ADHD. And during my ADHD assessment, funnily enough, they asked me, "Have you ever been tested for autism?" And so that one took a little bit more time, but then I eventually also got diagnosed with autism.

Laetitia: Thank you. Thank you for sharing this story, and it's really powerful the journeys that you shared around having other people guiding you on the path, but also yourself going through your own self-discovery journey.

Laetitia: Did it change anything for you on how you read your own story when you arrived to identifying as an AuDHDer?

Jocelyn: It put my life into context. So, and I feel like there's a process a lot of people go through where it's like you're looking back on your life and your experiences, and it's like, "That makes sense.

Jocelyn: That makes sense. This is why I do this," or, "This is why this happened." 'Cause throughout my entire life, my ADHD had been especially obvious. So, like, when my parents found out, they were not at all surprised by this. 'Cause, like, I had always been very, like, scatterbrained, forgetful, disorganised, executive dysfunction, like the whole nine yards my entire life.

Jocelyn: But there was finally an explanation as to why these things were so difficult for me and as to why I behaved the way I did. And it was the same thing with autism. It explained why I'd always felt so out of place, and why I'd, like, struggled with, like, making friends and doing other things. Or, like, one thing very specifically was, I tend to have very, like, flat facial expressions and tone of voice, and this is something that people have commented on since I was a little kid, and people still comment on now.

Jocelyn: And I now finally have, like, the words and understanding as to, like, why I do that, as well as, like, a whole bunch of, like, other stuff.

Laetitia: Hmm. Yes. Such a big rediscovery of our own journey. I know that for myself when I got the autism assessment, I was just, "Oh, my goodness, that explains so much of the weirdness that other people will say, all the social struggles, the social anxiety."

Laetitia: Yeah, it's really beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I guess it's a beautiful segue to my next question, which is how when we go through school, whether it's primary, high school, college, university, and so on, we are asked to perform in a certain way. You know, sit still, produce, present, you know, participate in a specific way.

Laetitia: And when you are AuDHD or unidentified neurodivergent, you learn to do all of this in any way. Like, you have to perform in that way, but it has a cost. Do you wanna share with us a bit more about that cost and how it feel like on a daily basis? Because, you know, you're still in the academic context.

Laetitia: So for those who are listening, who may be parents of children who are still in the academic context, or for those who are in the academia, just relating to your own lived experience,

Jocelyn: I think the big cost is just kind of like energy and exhaustion. It's like when your brain works in a very different way than other people, you're essentially trying like twice as hard to like be in the same places or to do the same things.

Jocelyn: It's one of the reason why accommodations have been so helpful for me. But even with accommodations, I'm like, I'm trying so hard and I'm expending so much just to like get everything done. Like everyone else is talking about the assignment they just finished and they're like, "Oh, yeah, I just finished the assignment," while I'm still working on like the last one because I'm still behind. Like even with the accommodations, even with me trying so hard, I'm behind. And I don't wanna be behind. I'm not like trying to be behind, but it's like I'm expending as much energy as I possibly can on this, and it's like it's difficult and it can be kinda hard to explain, and it's significantly harder without accommodations.

Jocelyn: Like, I remember my first like I think like midterms or like finals, I think it was midterms, like my first set of exams in college, after I finished, I completely crashed. And I will like continuously say like the hardest thing after finishing that exams was dragging myself out of bed to get food.

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Laetitia: Yeah. Yeah. Which is something that many people don't get, you know, unless they have the lived experience. It just like, oh, you're performing so well at school, like you must be performing so well in the other area when actually performing so well at school is costing other self-care practices.

Laetitia: You wanna say something maybe to that?

Jocelyn: Yeah, it's like it makes it hard to, like, do anything else, whether it be, like, your own free time or just, like, rest, taking care of yourself. Like, it makes it so, it's, I don't really, like, always have, like, the words for that, but it's like it just makes everything else so difficult.

Jocelyn: Like, I'm out for the summer right now, and it's like life is hard normally. I struggle with this already, but it's like it's significantly harder when you have so much schoolwork that you need to do and you know you need to do well that everything else kind of declines more than it already is.

Laetitia: Mm. Yes.

Laetitia: Thank you for sharing that because this is really something I find in any context when we expand, as you said, like we spend so much energy doing one thing to fit in and doing it in a neurotypical expectation, so as other things compensate in a way, like we have to let go of other things.

Laetitia: It's not a question that I've sent you prior, so feel free not to answer it, but can you give some example of accommodations that parents or, you know, students or people listening to this podcast could ask when they are Autistic, ADHD, to give them some ideas of what they could ask, or how did you work to get those accommodation in place?

Jocelyn: So for me, my biggest accommodation, probably one of the only ones that I use, is extra time. I need a lot more time to process. It takes me a lot more time to, like, think and process and figure things out even with help, even with guidance. So assignments can take me a lot longer than usual because I need the time to process that, especially when you have to take multiple classes at once.

Jocelyn: That and also, like, rest. I cannot force myself to keep going in the same way other people can. Like, I don't get how people can do, like, all-nighters because there's a point in time where it's like, I'm just gonna be staring at the screen. I can't force myself to work. I would love to get this done right now, but I, like, physically can't.

Jocelyn: Mm-hmm. So having extra time can be a very helpful accommodation. Outside of that, you could also, like, ask for, like, sensory accommodations, whether that be, like, earplugs or headphones if that's what's helpful for you. Stim toys are always a great accommodation. That can be very helpful. But I also think it's just, like, really good to reflect on, like, what do you think you need?

Jocelyn: What can help you in that environment? So I know what's helpful for me isn't necessarily going to be helpful for everyone else.

Laetitia: Mm, that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing. And, which is linking us to another question, which is something that we wanna debunk, right? There is a lot of temptation to frame late identified Autistic, ADHD, or neurodivergent people, neurodivergent folks in academia as success story.

Laetitia: Prove that, you know, neurodivergent people can succeed if they try hard enough. What does this framing miss, and why does it matter to correct that framing?

Jocelyn: I feel like that kind of framing tends to miss just how hard people have to try to get to that point. 'Cause people only ever look, I feel like with those kind of stories, you only ever look at the success and not, like, the work and hardship it took to get there.

Jocelyn: Like, like I think, like, earlier this year I managed to get straight As for the semester. My family was proud, people in my life were proud, and I was really proud of myself for that because I didn't know I would ever do that in college. So like, yeah, I did that. But it's like that expectation's like, "Well, I know you can do better.

Jocelyn: Like, why can't you do that in all of your classes?" Or, "Why can't this be consistent?" Or, "Why haven't you been able to do that in the past?" And it kind of sets this, like, expectation of success where it's like I don't think you understand how hard I had to work to get to that point, or, like, the cost of it.

Jocelyn: Like, I'm exhausted. I'm tired. I can't. Like, I'm trying my best regardless, and that best isn't always going to be an A, but it's like you don't always understand, like, what it costs to get to that point. So it's like I think it's important that you do share success stories, but while also acknowledging that it wasn't easy to get here.

Jocelyn: And that, like, yeah, people can, some people can achieve these things, but others necessarily can't. The standard for one person isn't automatically going to apply to other people. So, like, yeah, you have some very successful Autistic, ADHD people, but you also have those who are struggling immensely regardless of whether they are successful or they're not, and that's okay.

Laetitia: I love it. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that and putting it so neatly and clearly. So, you actually mention the costs to kind of be part of an academic institution, be part in college, being successful. What are the way that aren't immediately visible, sorry, that are invisible, for people who are not part of your immediate circle?

Laetitia: What are, you know, the costs of actually getting those straight As, of actually making it in this context?

Jocelyn: For me personally, it's just like a lot of rest kinda gets like thrown out the window. Just any sort of, a lot of my like self-care kind of declines more than it already does. So like getting up, like getting up in the morning, showering, all that kind of stuff can be made like more difficult because of like my overload.

Jocelyn: My brain is a lot more chaotic than it needs to be 'cause it's like, "Okay, I have to get this thing done, I have to get this thing done," on top of like other responsibilities. And it's like, I feel like this is like a lot of like the ADHD and the executive dysfunction, but like having to like split my time.

Jocelyn: Like it's hard enough for me to focus already, but when I have to focus on like three or four different things at once in addition to like my personal needs, it can be really difficult to handle that, especially 'cause I have like other things to do outside of schoolwork. So it's just, for me it's just like a lot of exhaustion of like I need to take the time to rest.

Jocelyn: I need to take some time for myself, which can be hard when I have so many things to do.

Laetitia: Mm. Thank you for sharing that. And I know this is where personally I hit burnout, you know? Like being in those contexts and being in very high demanding schooling environments. I was in a preparatory school in France, which is, you get through the system to then get into one of the best business school, and I was really burning out because you just

Laetitia: The demand are so strong and it's really, if you do all of this, then all the things will have to go out the window. So what is, I love to ask you this question because as we just talked about, it's seems like the education system is a bit broken, we can say that, for neurodivergent folks.

Laetitia: So that's structural. What would a genuinely inclusive environment look like if we could dream and redesign it with universal design in mind? Like what would that look like for you?

Jocelyn: To me, the most inclusive, so I feel like that's kind of hard to imagine almost. But, like, I feel like the most inclusive environment would be, like, having people who understand how neurodivergence can affect learning and education, and being ready and willing to accommodate that.

Jocelyn: Like, I've seen it for, like, neurodivergent people like myself, I've seen it for people I've, like, who either aren't neurodivergent or at least not officially, and it's like I've seen people struggle without those accommodations. And I wish people were more, like, knowledgeable and ready and willing to accommodate students, because other times you have to fight for even the most basic of accommodations.

Jocelyn: I feel like there's some things, like, I feel like I shouldn't have to ask for, and then yet you find yourself having to just for, like, "I need this." You have to constantly, like, ask and ask and ask. And advocating for yourself is definitely important, but I wish it was kind of just the norm rather than something you had to work and fight for to get.

Laetitia: Yeah. Thank you. So in a little message of supporting anyone who is listening to this who is a parent, and then anyone who is a student, what do you wish someone, you know, said to you when you are in this thick of it, when you're like, "Oh my goodness," you know, in the middle of preparing for all of those paper or in the middle of exam.

Laetitia: What do you wish someone would tell you in those moments, and what do you wish someone would tell your parents or could tell all the parents of kiddos, children, young adult, teenagers while going through academia?

Jocelyn: Mm. I don't know if any, like, words would help me personally. Yes. For me, I'm like, I'm somebody who I think body doubling has kinda helped for me.

Jocelyn: So like even just like somebody being there as like a silent support. We're both doing this. We're both working. We're both getting things done. I think that would've been helpful. For parents, however, I think it's just they're trying hard. This costs a lot. Just like letting them know the effort that goes into this, because that I feel like is such a prominent thing of parents, regardless of whether they, like, fully embrace or, like, know about their kid's neurodivergence.

Jocelyn: So many people, like, underestimate how hard it is and the cost of doing that work, and it's like I am doing my best with what I have, with how my brain is running, with how my brain is working. I am trying very hard, and it's costing me a lot. So I think it's important for parents to know that about, like, their kids and everyone else so that they can be a bit more understanding and give a bit more grace.

Laetitia: Mm. So important. So true. And I love your point around body doubling. I know that when there is something I am meant to be doing, but I don't know where to start and how to start and when to do it, just sitting with someone even across a screen and just knowing that we're both doing that thing is actually really helping me.

Laetitia: So thank you for sharing that. You wanna add anything to this? Do you wanna add anything to this interview for it to feel more complete before I ask you how people can connect with you?

Jocelyn: Not really. I mean, it's just, like, being in school, whether you're in college, university, high school, middle school, elementary school, it can be very difficult when you are neurodivergent in any variety.

Jocelyn: So I think it's important to be able to understand yourself, to give yourself that grace, because it's not easy. It's not gonna be the same as it is for everyone else, and I think it's okay to, like, give yourself a break and to, I feel like having that understanding is a sense of freedom, and I think being able to give yourself that grace is probably one of the most important things that you can do.

Laetitia: So true. So true. I love it. Thank you so much. So for anyone who is listening to this and they're keen to follow your work or learn more from you, how can they connect with you?

Jocelyn: You can find me on pretty much any social media platform. I'm most active on Instagram and on Threads at audhd_academic.

Jocelyn: You'll pretty much find me anywhere with those.

Laetitia: Yes. And very good content. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Jocelyn, for coming today and sharing about your lived experience. I'm very grateful.

Jocelyn: Thank you so much for inviting me.

Laetitia: Welcome to a new Pulse from Zoe on the Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Laetitia: So Zoe, today we're talking about mornings. So what makes mornings really hard for you?

Zoe: When I don't have a good night's sleep and I feel very tired.

Laetitia: Mm. Thank you for sharing. And what could help your morning be easier? What would make it easier for you?

Zoe: If I've had a good night's sleep and I wake up knowing what I'm gonna do.

Laetitia: Yes.

Laetitia: Okay. Having a plan for the day. So if you could design your perfect morning, what would it look like?

Zoe: I would watch TV for a little bit. Yeah. Eat my favourite breakfast meal.

Laetitia: Yes.

Zoe: And have a dip in a pool.

Laetitia: Have a dip in a pool. Okay. What is your favourite morning meal?

Zoe: I would maybe say cereal.

Laetitia: Cereal?

Zoe: Yes, it is. Which is basically my every day,

Laetitia: Yeah.

Zoe: morning meal.

Laetitia: It is. Thank you so much, Zoe, for today.

Zoe: Bye.

Laetitia: Bye. That's a wrap for Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com. Thanks for listening.