Love under pressure: Intimacy and connection in ND families with Lil Desille

Laetitia: Welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse, where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers, and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host, Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum, and founder of Understanding Zoe. This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Hello Lil, welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Lil: Hello. I'm very excited for today. Thank you for having me.

Laetitia: We are going to talk about love and intimacy today, for families who are raising neurodivergent kiddos, or families who are neurodiverse. So it's really important for anyone of you to tune into today's episode. Before we start getting into the juice of the questions that I've prepared for today, I would love for you, Lil, to introduce yourself, a little bit about your background, and what made you work into that space.

Lil: Yeah. Okay. So, hi, my name is Lil. I am an Autistic, ADHDer, and PDA clinical psychologist. I work within the realms of sex, intimacy, and relationships. The reason, I guess, why, was, I watched a video when I was fourteen that was really exciting, and that completely enthralled me, and I was like, okay, I want to be a sexologist, and that just set me off. And along the way, I learned about my own neurodivergence, and I kind of took a little pit stop by working in the neurodiversity affirming paradigm space, and then I decided, wait, I forgot my other job thing that I wanted to do, and then, so, I was like, why not do both? So that's sort of how I've come to be where I am. But I work with other Autistic ADHDers, and some other forms of neurodivergences as well, but those are the predominant clients that I see, working on their partnerships, navigating family particularly too. I do see a lot of parents that are in relationships, having their own neurodivergent kiddos, and balancing, I guess, how to have and maintain intimacy despite those differences as well.

Laetitia: And I came across your work, and I attended some content and webinars that you offered, highly recommend to anyone who's curious and really want to learn from Lil. And what I love about what you express is how we can actually do things simply, and I know sometimes we like to complexify things, and we like to put it in the too hard basket, and I really love how approachable your style is. And as a parent, I know how intimacy and sexuality can come later than the other things that I want to do, and that I need to do, and that I must do, to keep everyone safe and secure. But can you share a bit with us, what kinds of pressures do you see most often in couples and families? Because I could share my own struggle, but it would be my own lived experience and my own life, but I know you have seen so many different families and cases. So what are the most concurrent ones?

Lil: I guess it varies, but there are a few that tend to come up quite regularly. I'll speak specifically to couples that also have children, or a child, just because I think it's a little bit more specific to what we're here for. The biggest thing is the mental and domestic load, and the differences between those, between partners, but also with consideration to family members as well as carer considerations on top of that. And usually neurodivergent people tend to partner with neurodivergent people. So it's really about balancing, and that balancing act between how do I support you, the kiddos, and myself, and really trying to navigate that. So the mental and domestic load is one of the biggest ones. The next one is communication patterns and styles. So often, you're not going to have as much space to communicate with one another in partnership if you've got children. You've got kiddos that are asking for things that might have higher support needs, so you need to tend to them more frequently, and as a result, that next bit, communication can get lost, but it can also rupture, and kind of create a bit of a barrier between intimacy in the sexual sense, and emotional intimacy as well, in the way that we connect with our partner, because we're usually prioritising our kiddos, and fair enough, as we should. But it really just comes up, I guess, as a general thing, balance, balance, balance, balance, and most neurodivergent individuals, you know, we're zero to a hundred type people. So it's either we're really going at it with everything we have and then fizzling out and not being capable of holding it all. And so, I think those are the most common and most prevalent kind of things.

Laetitia: Oh my gosh, there are so many things that I want to double click on. This is not about me, this is for everyone listening to this podcast, but so much juice in what you said, and I can really see myself in the description that you gave. So I hope that will be helpful for our listeners, to know that you're not the only one if you struggle with those elements, like communication rupture.

Laetitia: I know, everything that you have mentioned is really relevant. So before we answer, it was not a prepared question, but that's how my brain works, you know,

Lil: Do it, jump, do it.

Laetitia: as well. So sometimes I just go on tangents, so feel free to tell me if you're not comfortable with that one, but you mentioned quickly emotional intimacy, and I would love to ask you, how do we define intimacy and sexuality? Because I see a lot of people who just identify this as the sexual report, when actually there are lots of other elements coming into play, and I would love for you to share a bit more about this, because I think it would be freeing for a lot of people to know that there is not just, I don't know the English word for that, like a sexual act, I was part of research as well, so I don't know the English word for all of this, but can you share with us the difference of opportunities to create intimacy and sexual relationship with your partners?

Lil: Absolutely. And so I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm understanding is we just want clarification that sex is not the only form of intimacy.

Laetitia: Cool.

Lil: So yeah, and I really want to affirm, no, it is not the only form of intimacy, and in fact it's usually the thing that goes off the cards until other forms of intimacy are established within a partnership, or reestablished and maintained, depending on where you are in your journey of partnerhood. So intimacy as a whole is really a level of vulnerability and depth and meeting someone, and it doesn't even need to be a partner. It can be a family member. It can be a friend. Intimacy is a global act of vulnerability. Now, there's different domains of intimacy. So, emotional intimacy is that emotional depth, the conversations about the really tricky stuff, being vulnerable and exchanging thoughts and views about your inner world and how things are affecting you and impacting you. And one of the biggest things that I see, that kind of gets not thrown away but does get put on the back burner in partnerships, especially if there's kiddos that are present, is that emotional intimacy. So I hear a lot of partners will be like, oh, we no longer have sex, but I want to know, where is the emotional intimacy too, because, usually not all the time, but that is also a component that tends to be missing.

Lil: How do we get to that? Well, it might be as simple as downloading an app that has a question per day, where you have a little five minute snippet where you ask each other about anything that's not to do with the kids, and anything not to do with work. Anything that you can actually relate to one another with. There's a beautiful, the 36 Questions to Love. And there's a beautiful amount of research to suggest that strangers, people that know each other, and partners, all gain a sense of deepened intimacy when they're asking those. So you might want to do one question a day, or you might want to go for it for the whole hour, or however long it takes you to do, but you can kind of segment and pick and choose, but it's just about connecting with one another. And because we're missing those moments so frequently, if you're tending to your kiddos, if you're in burnout, if you're exhausted, if you just do not have the time, which, in a capitalist society, how often do we have any? So it's really about carving out intentional moments to prioritise that. And it might feel forced to begin with, but over time, it's once again about getting that momentum rolling. That's where that zero to a hundred needs to come in with balance. We have to actually maybe encourage ourselves more than we usually would to have this connection, in order to establish that flow and that rhythm together.

Laetitia: I love it. Thank you for sharing that, because when you mentioned it, I was like, it would be helpful for some of our listeners to know that we're here not to talk just about sex. We're here talking about intimacy and connection. And that's beautiful. So what are some misconceptions that you wish, and maybe this is one of them, that you wish more people understood differently, in terms of this stereotype which is, oh, when your parents, or when you raise a family that has higher support needs, so there is no space for intimacy and connection. What do you wish we could bust as some myth?

Lil: I mean that in itself, as the sentence, should be the myth that gets busted. I would highly recommend creativity as the antidote, maybe, to that myth, so to speak. You can absolutely create pockets and windows of intimacy and connection, and even sexual intimacy as well. But it's about the intentional and conscious act of doing so. And that's where I say, get creative. If you have higher support needs kiddos, you might have some support workers, you might not. You might co-sleep, which means that that creates space in the bedroom where you're not going to be able to be intimate sexually with a partner, or have time to connect. That doesn't mean showers aren't a thing. It doesn't mean that there aren't other beds and cars. It doesn't mean that we can't have other supports, whether informal or formalised, that are coming in, that can look after the kids while we go for a quickie and see how quickly we can connect. It might be allocating one date night a month, and recognising your kiddos are going to be dysregulated as all heck for that night, but honouring that your partnership needs to be prioritised still. So you'll handle and support the dysregulation together as a team, but you also need to be a team together as partners, not just parents.

Laetitia: Wow.

Lil: So good. I love it. Creativity, creativity is a beautiful way to see things, because sometimes when we're stuck into the neuronative way how it should look, and then, as you said,

Laetitia: you know, co-sleeping, and higher support needs, this is the reality for many of us. So we can't necessarily go with the neuronorm, and the kind of, oh, mum and dad are going to their bed and this is when they're going to have their intimacy time at night. So yeah, I really love that, and the different practical elements that you said, and you touched on this very quickly, which is how, when you make space for intimacy to be reignited, for sexual relationship to be opened again, for this connection to be open, it has a positive ripple effect. Do you want to share a bit more, what you've noticed in those partnerships, in those families, when this fire, I don't know, I have this image of fire, but maybe it's not fire, but when this passion, this flame, is reignited, what is a ripple effect of that?

Lil: Oh, everything. So, I'm just going to make a note and say, whether you change a behaviour, an internal cognition and perception, a physiological response, if you just change one thing away from your usual pattern, everything changes. It might be subtle, but everything still changes, because you're deferring from the pattern that you're used to. For couples and partnerships and families that kind of prioritise that connection, what I see is less stress when it comes to co-parenting together, because they're working more in a united sense. It's a, how can I help you? Or maybe you've been giving a bit of grace to your partner more than you usually would, if you dropped the ball on this. Hey, that's okay, I've got this. That tends to come out quite a lot. You see laughter, it's so beautiful to witness a lot of the couples that I work with when they're in moments of delight with each other. So you're feeling this joy with them, and witnessing, going, hey, you see play come out, and play is like one of the safest spaces that you can enter into as an adult. And beyond that as well, the kiddos, they're being supported more. You're going to be able to handle things if you're someone that's sensory sensitive yourself. So you're going to be able to have your window of tolerance expanded, both in partnership, but with your kiddos. The intimacy tends to double down as well. You're more likely to want to spend time with your partner when you're being with them, rather than just witnessing them do things, like you're actually indulging and delighting in and with, in real time. There are numerous benefits, it's just really, really powerful, and you can see the difference really quite jarringly, as a pre versus post kind of, we've worked on this together and we've made the connection, if that makes sense.

Laetitia: Totally, totally makes sense. And so anyone who's listening to this, like, okay, I want to do it, I want to, little convince me, this conversation just made me realise that this is what I need, this start, like, where can this start? I know it's a very broad question, so you can give us different strategies, different ways we can start, but what are the kind of practical steps you would encourage someone who has just become aware that this is something that they may be missing right now in their life? Where could this start, and how can they reignite this?

Lil: A few different suggestions. The first one is looking and reflecting, right? Look back. When was the last time that you went on a date with your partner, solo, away from the kiddos? That would be the first step. Just having a reflection, because if you can remember how far back it is, that's usually a clue or a cue that we want to try to bolster it in. And if you don't like dates, that's okay too, just as a reaffirmation there. If you're someone that would prefer to just be indoors, there's such a thing as indoor dates too, so you can do things from home too. But looking at the last time that you had the kind of intimacy you resonate with most, and I say the kind of intimacy you resonate with most, because it's not always sexual intimacy that we're missing. Like I said before, it's sometimes that emotional intimacy, but maybe it's spiritual intimacy. If you're someone who has faith as a really important part of your space and your connection with your partner, maybe it's not even spiritual, but maybe it's physical. What kind of intimacy is the one that you've been missing the most, is my, I guess, big question. And then, how can we incorporate that?

Lil: So I usually recommend one date night a month as a starting space, and it can be indoors or outdoors, it doesn't discriminate. And I mean, if you need to have the kids there too, you can actually do those things too. But it's about the honouring together, and what is agreed upon collaboratively.

Lil: The next bit as well are pockets. So I really like to recommend pockets, I came up with the term, but technically I'm pretty sure there are so many actual iterations where it has an official term. But there are mini little team huddles, where you and your partner, or partners, will communicate ahead of time, like, what's the game plan? And you do this during transitions, like, what do we need for today while we're out with the kids, doing something? How can we check in with one another? Are you going to need a hand squeeze throughout the day occasionally, to just signify, hey, I'm with you in real time? Are you going to need a five minute coffee with me, where the kids are running up and doing their own thing and we're just here? What is it that you need for today, that I can honour for you, and having that reciprocated? So offering out something for your partner too. Capacity is going to look different for everyone, and that's why I say a pocket only has to be five minutes. It doesn't actually have to be this big extraordinary gesture. It's just about practising getting into the routine of small little snippet moments, because those are the ones that matter the most.

Laetitia: Wow. Really, really powerful. I love the concept of pockets, because when you start reconnecting, I think if you aim for too big, then you feel you haven't done this, whereas those pockets, and the one a month, seem really feasible. I'll say that we don't do that, but it's wonderful, we'll definitely look into doing this. And this is where something that you mentioned around distinction for indoor dates is really important, because again, maybe it's neuronormative, maybe it's like you have to get out, but sometimes it's really not possible, because, as you said, your kids may get so dysregulated, and I know that for us, when we try to get out, it's just, even if we have a support worker at home,

Laetitia: they ask to call us, and then they need us nearby. Whereas if we have a support worker upstairs and we can be downstairs and just have a moment, and for us, we love board games. So, I'm just, sorry, I'm opening up, I love this, all of those things that you've shared with us, really, really beautiful.

Laetitia: So if we're looking forward, and I love on this podcast when I ask this question, around what are the bigger things that we'd like to see changing, what are the other things in the system, because here we're talking about the families and at the family level, but what could be done in other places to help remove some of the friction that we feel as families and so on? So where could we make more room for connection and love? If we think about the therapists involved in the care, the schools, the workplaces, how can we make more space for that connection and intimacy?

Lil: Well, we need to create advocacy as, I guess, a fundamental cornerstone, and getting on the same page, because sometimes you might disagree with your partner. So firstly, let's have a discussion about what are our mutual shared points, and how can we bring that forward to school or work, or the environments that are in other areas. So do we need to try to create access for support work in the household, if we can't outsource some of the things for ourselves. So, for example, with that domestic load, can we either afford to have a cleaner, or potentially barter and trade one of our services and provide something back to someone else, that could allow us an hour of someone coming in to help us, so that that connection time for us is prioritised. Can we advocate to the schools on how to better support our kiddos, so that they're not having those meltdowns at home, as much, at least? Obviously we can't control the dynamics of dysregulation, but it's really about looking at those shared mutual goals. Is it that we need to have a work from home day, which is a reasonable adjustment when you are a carer? If that's the case, then that one day at home might give you a bit more spoons in the bank, to allow you to initiate more connection with your partner. It might be that you need to take one day off in the month, where you actually just have that as a date day when the kiddos are at school. It's really about looking at things through that creativity lens, like I said before, of, we don't need to follow, there's no rules about how we prioritise connection and intimacy. So why not question, what are the ways that we could? And sometimes we might get stuck for ideas, and that's where maybe you reach out to informal people, like your friends or your family, and say, what are some of the ways that you do X, Y and Z? It might be posting it onto a Facebook or a group chat or a group page, where you go, hey, I'm looking for ideas. The more thoughts and the more ideas that we can generate, the more we kind of have that expands our own window of ideas, and the way that we can express those connections.

Laetitia: I love it. Which is where I'd love to ask you, which is always a question we ask towards the end, which is about the quickfire, and about you, like, what is one simple ritual or date night idea that always works for you? Some things that you're like, and it's, and it can be a fun way that always works for your clients, I want to try this.

Lil: Okay. Well, there's two. There's an indoor one and an outdoor one. And I'm going to use both, because I think, once again, going back to accessibility, affordability, all of those things, I think it's nice to have both. So, outdoor ones, side by side, walking, exercising, riding a bike if it's possible for you, to get movement, or even just being outside in general. And this is where it applies to the indoor, having a picnic together, whether it's indoors, and getting a little picnic rug, and having some of your favourite little nibblies, and you can have your safe foods there, you've got your little, what feels good for you. And then, on the alternative, like if you're going outside at a park, and it's family friendly as well, so they can be there and present, whether they're on their iPads, or if they're actually playing at the park, you can have that filtered and concentrated time.

Lil: And so I always say that going outside is great, because we all need to touch grass occasionally, and I think sometimes we forget to, but because I understand accessibility is quite difficult, particularly for chronic health parents, which, once again, orders, we're more prone to having a lot of autoimmune and other chronic health conditions too, that indoor space as well, or even in your backyard, or you could even just get a mattress and pull it out into the living room and have a movie night. You can find so many creative ways to connect, in really cost friendly and effective ways. And it might be that you just have a hand squeeze here and there, or maybe you have a little code word that only you two know, that you could signal to each other, that's like, hey, thanks for this, or something like that, that the kids don't know what it means, but it's something between the two of you. So, there's small little things that you can do, but those are probably the dates I'd make as a strong suggestion.

Laetitia: I love that. It's so powerful to share a meal together, and have the ability for each to choose what they feel like eating. I really love that. Really love it. Thank you so much for this. And actually, we did, because we didn't receive the furniture downstairs, it was four weeks delayed, and so we had a few picnics as a family with candlelight.

Lil: Amazing.

Laetitia: So fun. It was actually lots of fun, because everyone would get their safe food, and everyone would sit around the rug, and it's so simple, yet it was really powerful, and it was coming from a place of, oh my goodness, we still don't have a couch downstairs.

Lil: Yeah.

Laetitia: Made it a great experience. So, I love this example. Thank you so much. So, Lil, for anyone who's listening to this and like, oh my goodness, I want to learn more from Lil, I want to follow her on social, how can they connect with you?

Lil: You can connect with me through Instagram, is usually a good medium if you want more resources and information, and that's just Neuro Connection, which I'm sure you'll spell and put into the show notes for it. But I also have my website, that's for more therapy supervision kind of work. And then my informal side brand business, which was done intentionally, so, Get Off My Ass, is more like meditation, Reiki, couples retreats, and all of that. Both of them have resources and links and all of the things that's needed. But Instagram if you just want quick access.

Laetitia: And we'll put all of this in the show notes to make sure everyone can access whichever link makes more sense for them. Thank you so much, Lil, for today.

Lil: No, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. And the only thing I'll make a quick note of, the dinner thing's not going to go down well if you have misophonia, or if any of your kiddos do. So you might want to apply accommodations where necessary, headphones, or reminding your kids that they're happy to get up and go and leave as they need.

Laetitia: Yes, I love that note. Thank you so much for today, for all of your tips and all of your knowledge. It's really powerful. Thank you.

Lil: Thank you for having me.

Laetitia: Zoe is joining us for another Quick Pulse check. Zoe, what's one thing that makes you feel loved at home in your family?

Zoe: When my parents care for me, and they acknowledge that I am neurodivergent and always will be.

Laetitia: Thank you, Zoe, for sharing that. And Zoe, what is one of your favourite things to do with your family?

Zoe: I like the morning hugs, and being outside in nature with them, and mostly being in the zoo looking at the creatures with them.

Laetitia: Thank you, Zoe, for sharing and joining us for this Quick Pulse check. That's a wrap for The Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com.