School Can't: Finding Your Path Through Education Breakdowns with Corinne Smith and KinHub

Laetitia: Welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers, and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite-sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum and founder of Understanding Zoe. This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Laetitia: Hello Corinne, welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Corinne: Hi, thanks for having me.

Laetitia: It is going to be a delicious conversation about school can't, and something that many parents who are listening to this podcast may experience at some point. So before we start talking about this topic, I would love for you to share a bit about yourself, and how did you work in that space of supporting parents with kids who are in school can't?

Corinne: Yes. So, well, unsurprisingly, I am one of those parents who have been down the school pathway. My eldest had school can't from the very beginning of their school journey, and we persisted through to about year three before we finally moved over into homeschooling. And homeschooling has been really great for their learning style, but there's an isolation for them as an individual, but also us as a family, that was really noticeable for me. So, that's what led to me creating KinHub, which is a weekly meetup and also an online platform for parents, carers, children, and young people who are walking a pathway that looks somewhat different to the mainstream. So lots of the participants who come to us have experienced school can't and other school related trauma, and it's an opportunity for them to come together and create community, have that sense of belonging and shared experience that they're missing out on by not being able to go to school.

Laetitia: Mm. And it, I loved how, when I landed on your website, it felt coming home, you know, this understanding of the reality that we experience. So when a child is unable to attend school, this school can't, what's really happening beneath the surface? And what is this? Can we help parents who may not have ever experienced school can't, or those who are new to this, or even those who are experts at school can't, like, what is happening?

Corinne: Well, I think, I mean, we first of all need to understand that it's not laziness or defiance. These kids and these young people, they really cannot attend. One young person told me that it's a bit like walking through the school gates, and it just feels like every cell of their body is screaming, this is not safe, not safe. And they're not sure why, but there's a message coming through their nervous system, and they just cannot go any further. It's a survival response. It's not a choice by these kids to not attend.

Laetitia: It's, yeah, it's a really tricky one, and for parents who haven't had that experience themselves, it's really hard to understand and to come at it with empathy.

Corinne: Yes. Yes. For sure.

Laetitia: The laziness and defiance is often something that people will mention, how then, as parents, they may feel a guilt towards pushing so hard that then the child hits the state of burnout and breakdown. Would you like to share a bit more about some of those first signs that parents that you've seen coming through KinHub may have missed, or how parents can support their children before they hit that burnout stage, that can happen with kids when they are in school can't?

Corinne: Yeah, definitely. I think, I mean, when I look back on our experience, and also hear the experience of other people that I speak to about this, there's definitely some consistent clues. And I think things like stomach aches, you know, tears on a Sunday night, sheer exhaustion after school. I remember my own child holding it together, and as soon as they got in the car, it was just this total collapse. And that's often called restraint collapse, because they've been holding it together for the entire day, and all of a sudden they're in their safe space with their safe person, and they just collapse. And so the behaviours look like what some people would call a tantrum. They're very definitely not. It's a nervous system that's in total overload and is just absolutely leaking out. And so that kind of thing is a really indicative sign. Then it will tend to build. Kids really battle to get out the door, or they just simply can't get out of bed or leave their room. So, it's a little bit like having a constant storm in the household.

Corinne: And I think parents are somewhat torn between wanting to protect their child, and really protect their mental health and wellbeing, and then also following the rules. I think it's made very clear by schools that attendance is something that they value very highly. And so, parents feel that pressure, and it can be really difficult to walk that line where you keep your child safe but also live up to the expectations of those systems that are supposed to be holding us. And I think it's really hard. Siblings feel the strain, everybody's world starts to shrink. And it can feel very isolating and very lonely for everybody involved.

Laetitia: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I know that there is a big misunderstanding outside of the school can't community about what is school can't.

Laetitia: So you find, you know, I find myself often explaining, what does it mean when I say, "Oh, Zoe, today can't go to school." It was like, "What does it mean? Is she sick?" "No, she's not." It's, today is not a day where her body and her mind, and as you said, her nervous system, feel that they can go to school. And I think there is a big education piece. Do you want to add something to that?

Corinne: I was just going to say that thing, I don't know if you've experienced it, where you're talking to people and they basically, they're like, have you tried a sticker chart, or they give advice that they feel like is going to be really helpful, but it's like, we've tried everything. It's not that we have not provided the opportunity to parent these children. It's just that it's like they're the canaries in the coal mine, they sense that something's not quite right about that school environment, and they just cannot push through.

Corinne: And I think it's probably a good opportunity to also say that, for us at KinHub, and certainly I have seen also the figures in terms of neurodivergent young people and children, there's an over representation of neurodivergent children in the school can't systems. So, it's a really challenging one to look at, and look at whether our systems are being inclusive, and whether those are some of the reasons why our neurodivergent young people are experiencing school can't. There's a big puzzle there to be put together, and I think understanding neurotype is a big piece of that.

Laetitia: Definitely understanding neurotype, and also understanding what's happening behind closed doors. Like parents who have never experienced school can't, as you said, they're like, oh, have you tried this, have you tried that, but when you see your child being in that state, you definitely don't want them to push through that harder and harder. And one of the comments that I hear a lot, it's like, oh, but you're very lucky, you run your own business so you can do that. Yet I have talked to many parents who may be working in corporate and so on, but those are the days that they take a carer's leave. Those are the moments where some of those parents, one of them may leave the workforce to look after the child. It's not being lucky. Maybe I created that luck by accommodating my way of working around my own family needs. Do you have anything to say to that?

Corinne: Not a prepared question. No, totally, we've done exactly the same thing. And I think there are figures out there that talk about parents of neurodivergent children being, you know, fully employed only 30% of the time, because it is very difficult to manage the flexibility required as the parent of a school can't kid. You know, constantly calling into the workplace and helping them to understand that your child just can't go to school for the day, it's really a big challenge. And there's no other systems to catch these children. There's nowhere else for them to go.

Laetitia: Which is, which is my next question, is for the parents who are in the middle of school can't, or at the start of school can't, or maybe they've had school can't for a few months or years, what is existing out there to support those families? What is a step that they can take today? And you're allowed to talk about KinHub, of course, but what is out there? Because when I connected with you, I was like, "Oh my goodness, didn't know that that existed," and that would have been so essential last year when we were in a big phase of school can't. This year we've been good so far, only a few days here and there, or a few consecutive days here and there. But what is existing out there?

Corinne: I would love to have a really long list of things to provide you, but there's not a lot. I mean, I run KinHub voluntarily, it's a very grassroots organisation, we're free to use, unfunded. So we are available now twice a week, but it's difficult for people, because even at KinHub, we're not a drop off service. So it's more of a space for families to come and connect, and get support for the whole family, and to build capacity for the whole family. But it's challenging, because it's very difficult to work at the same time for parents, and so there needs to be a lot of flexibility between partners, where there's a sharing of the requirements for the entire family. And there's a real need for employers to be very flexible when it comes to families who are experiencing this.

Laetitia: Yes, thank you for sharing this. So let's indeed move to rethinking systems, like, what, looking ahead, what changes would you like to see in schools, in the education systems, in the workplace, to better support those children who can't follow the traditional path, you know, the neuronormative path, of you go to school and you sit at a desk and you stay there from 9 to 3.

Corinne: And then, I think that question alone could probably be its own podcast. But I guess just before we touch on that, there's probably a few other practical things, I didn't give necessarily a lot of options for people to get support. But I think, for families who are experiencing this in the very early days, I do think it's really important to take the pressure off. I think it's necessary to take school out of the picture, even if that's just for a week, and create a calm sanctuary for your child or your young person. Give them permission to just stop everything, you know, stay in their pyjamas, eat in their room, sleep, watch screens, just all of the things that their nervous system is going to need to heal. And it is very counterintuitive, I think, for people. And we worry that, oh my god, my kid's never going to leave the house again, or they're just going to be on screens for the rest of their lives. But I think I've seen it enough times to know confidently that the pathway out of burnout for children is a total reduction of demands.

Corinne: And it's not about reducing demands and never reintroducing them, because I don't think we want to set our kids up for that. But it is about understanding that their nervous system really is in distress, and the best way out of that distress is to take away all the demands and allow them to heal, and then gradually reintroduce those things that they have capacity for. I think when you're in that calm space, you can then think about what the next steps are. A GP can give you a medical certificate for, even if it's just anxiety, it would be sufficient for short term solutions.

Corinne: There is a New South Wales Department of Education form where you can get an exemption from attendance for 100 days, and that exemption is very much geared towards children who are athletes, or perhaps pursuing creative arts, and may have external responsibilities in addition to their education. But there is also a sort of other reasons category, and I would push people to discuss that other reasons category with their principals, so that you can really create a little bit of space without that pressure of schools, because obviously schools have their own requirements that they need to meet in terms of attendance, and so coming to a legitimate space for some breathing room can be really helpful.

Corinne: I think also joining Facebook pages like School Can't Australia, and joining KinHub AU, is really helpful. There's people there who've walked the path before, and can really help to create that feeling of support, and to understand that you're not alone. And I think then you start to move from that space into a space of advocating for your child. And it's hard when you're advocating for your child not to come at it from an adversarial position, but I think approach from a collaborative position, assume that the teacher wants to make it work, and use things like Understanding Zoe to help those teachers and those people who are in constant contact with your young person to understand what they need, what sort of responses are not going to trigger those nervous system reactions, and what are actually going to help to create that relational safety, to get them through the door and to help them to stay there.

Corinne: So, I think in terms of rethinking systems, there's so much work to be done. I think it's interesting, I think we're probably doing more work in inclusive accommodations for neurodivergent people, in particular around workplaces and even universities. We've actually got a young person at KinHub who's studying at university, who said to me the other day, "You know, it's just so great, I get all of these accommodations just automatically, there's no battle for these things," which I thought was really promising.

Laetitia: That's great.

Corinne: Yeah, I think in terms of schools, we still need to see a shift from compliance to flexibility. I think we need to see smaller classes, or more teachers. It's a very big responsibility for one person to try and create meaningful relationships with 30 people in the class and to hold all of those individual needs, it's an impossible task. I think sensory friendly spaces are really important too, and hybrid attendance. I think it would make a massive difference for so many of our school can't kids if they could attend for a couple of days and then, when they've reached capacity, have that day to reset and empty the bucket, before they actually go back, and that process of overwhelm, just sensory overwhelm, even demand overwhelm, all of those components start to fill the bucket up again. So I think that capacity to have a hybrid attendance would be a really huge positive shift for our families.

Corinne: But I think, overarching all of that, is a changing culture, particularly for schools, where wellbeing and belonging come before grades. And I think we're still a way off, unfortunately, we're still sort of at that stage where the policies that exist, both within the schools and then broader at state level, are all about punishment. And in terms of absence, we're not asking questions around what could support this child to actually re-engage and get back in the classroom in their own way, we're sort of stuck at this idea of how can I get them through the door. And I just think, as long as we're looking at it from that lens, and if that's the goal, we're never going to achieve what we need to.

Laetitia: I love, like, so many nuggets of gold there. Thank you for diving deeper around the practical guidance, I think everyone will appreciate that. And then going into the system, everything you said, I love what you said around the compliance space, and how, right now, having too much focus on compliance means exclusion for many of our children. And I love that now universities are starting to be more inclusive. So hopefully we'll trickle down and go back to high school and primary school, because that's really needed, even at daycare stage. You know, I remember Zoe was so little, but she had days where we just couldn't drop her at daycare, it was just, she would, in her tears, in the way she would grip me, in the way that I was like, okay, so not today.

Corinne: Yeah. Not today. You know, you have those moments where you're like, no, not today, today, you're not going today.

Laetitia: And I think, just to give everybody the permission, I guess, to listen to their children on those days. You don't need to push through. Listen to them. They're very clearly telling you that they can't.

Corinne: And I think, we very much live in this culture of just kind of push through, and that's gradually changing. But I think for our kids, the expectation to just push through and just get in there and not listen to your body, if somebody was in a workplace that was making them feel that distressed, we would never suggest just to push through.

Laetitia: Yeah.

Corinne: So, I think, rethinking how we come at those subtle signs, and the not so subtle signs, from our children as well.

Laetitia: Yeah. And what you said also about giving them a day to empty their bucket, it's really what we started doing last year when Zoe was clearly expressing that it was too much going to the classroom. And so we had this agreement, as you know, when you can't, you can stay home, and those are the days where you can refill and where you can recharge, and so on. And so now, when she's asking, we're not scared that she's going to do a whole month or a whole year. It's going to be those days where she needs, and maybe it's three days, like it was at the end of the term, maybe it's two days, maybe it's a day here, maybe it's five days. But just, what you said around giving permission to parents to listen to those early signs, and also then find KinHub or other groups to support you, because, as you said, it's very isolating. A lot of people don't understand and really judge us around, "Oh, you're just letting everything flow." And people who are my friends in France, in France it's really strict education, it's very very different, so they all think that I'm just letting everything go through. But no, it's just, I'm listening to my child. So yeah.

Corinne: Yeah. And that can be a really hard place to trust yourself, when all the external signals are really questioning your judgment. But I do think it's interesting too, when we think about our kids, I mean, most of the kids experiencing school can't that I know actually do really want to go to school. And so it's not that they actually don't want to go, it very much is that they can't. Most of the kids I know really love being at school, they love connecting with their friends, they love what they're learning, they're interested, but there's just, it's too much for the capacity. It's just, you know, the bucket overflows very quickly.

Laetitia: Yeah, the zoo, as they call it. It's like, it's too loud and everyone runs everywhere, I can't concentrate. So, yeah, it's very interesting.

Corinne: I know. I'd like to give every school teacher a $1,000 budget to just put a sensory space in every classroom. It would make such a difference. And it would be such an easy solution for so many kids, just to be able to use that space to decompress.

Laetitia: I love that. A decompression room in every class, every school, every space. That's a good magic one.

Laetitia: I love it. So, we always love on the podcast, I always love to ask a quick fire question about yourself, but this one is, what is your favourite memory, with your family, or with a family that you've supported through school?

Corinne: Look, I mean, I think my favourite memory is just of one young person who had come to KinHub for, you know, it was the first time that they'd really reconnected in a group setting since being out of school for a few years, and they just, they kind of were in the background for a little bit, and then they started to engage with our drama class, and then they were consistently showing up for the drama class, and they were first in line for the class. And then I'd had a conversation with them, and they just, they said to me, it's really the first time that I've felt like myself again. And I think that moment of being seen and feeling safe is everything, as to why KinHub exists. It's very much about children, young people and their parents, who are often late diagnosed neurodivergent people, coming in and being themselves unmasked, acknowledging when we've got capacity, advocating for ourselves when we don't, stepping away as we need to, creating boundaries, and helping these young people to understand that their experience is still really valid. So, it's been great to really hear that consistently from young people, that they can just show up as themselves.

Laetitia: It's amazing. I just love what you do, Corinne. It's so beautiful. So, for anyone who is listening to this podcast, and they live locally, where can they find KinHub, or how can they connect if they don't live locally, with anything that you offer online?

Corinne: Yes. So, they can definitely come and visit us each Tuesday, down in Marrickville, just jump on the website, which is kinhub.org.au, and you can find all the details on there. We've also got a Facebook page, which is KinHub AU. And there's an opportunity at both of those locations to make a donation as well, if KinHub is something that you feel connected to. As I said, we're very much a grassroots charity, we don't get any funding, and we're free to use, which is not a great combination, but is very definitely inclusive and helpful for many of our families, and makes it possible for them to attend. But yeah, very definitely get in touch through any of those channels, and pop in for a visit. There's no obligation to sign up, or to stay for the whole time, or commit to a term, come back, any of those things. You can just pop in, you can sit outside or sit on the sidelines, and see if it feels like the right spot for you, and just gradually build those connections.

Laetitia: Thank you. Thank you so much, Corinne, for your time today.

Corinne: My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

Laetitia: Okay, Zoe is joining us now for her quick pulse check. Zoe, have you ever experienced school can't?

Zoe: Yes, I am in school can't today, actually.

Laetitia: Yes, you are. So, we're recording this quick pulse check with you. So, Zoe, how do you feel when you don't go to school and stay at home?

Zoe: Calm, because I'm not around kids who are being so noisy, and happy because I have my parents right there beside me.

Laetitia: Thank you, Zoe, for joining this quick pulse.

Laetitia: That's a wrap for The Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com.