The tug-of-war brain: Harnessing ADHD & Autism for strengths with Brianna Thomas

Laetitia: Welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers, and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite-sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum and founder of Understanding Zoe. This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Laetitia: Hello Brianna, how are you?

Brianna: Hi, thanks for having me on. I'm so excited to be here.

Laetitia: Me too. It was like, the beginning of each other seeing each other on the screen was like, "Yay!"

Brianna: I know, so exciting.

Laetitia: For a little story, Bri and I have been, you know, chatting a lot online. So, I feel it's like I'm welcoming someone who is dearly connected to myself and to the community, on the Understanding Zoe podcast. So Brianna, before we get into more of the detail of today's podcast, which is really talking about autism and ADHD, so AuDHD and our AuDHDers out there, I would love to invite you to tell a little bit more about yourself and what you do, and your own journey through AuDHD.

Brianna: Absolutely. It's, I feel like you can't separate me out from my ADHD. When I talk about myself, it's my operating system, it's how I function. I'm a clinical psychologist, I mostly work with ADHD children, but I do have some teen and adult clients as well, which I just love, working across the board of the lifespan. But it's really funny, you attract a particular type of clientele, and I would say 99% of my clients are ADHD, so that works well for me. I feel like we really resonate with each other, and I can create a safe space for them, so that's awesome. I love being really creative in my therapy, so I have more art supplies than an art therapist, it's just crazy, my room is just full of colour and art.

Brianna: I am late diagnosed, so ADHD came first, about five years ago, and then autism came about three years ago. And it was, both of them were just such aha moments, like this moment of, oh, this makes so much sense now. At first I doubted it, and then, of course, being an autistic woman thinking that I was autistic, I deep rabbit holed and researched it. But it just, it was like the light bulb went off, and I was like, ah, there it is, now I make sense.

Laetitia: I love it. And I can really relate to that story. So I am also an AuDHDer. I was actually diagnosed with ADHD when I was five, but my parents decided to not label me. Like my parents do.

Brianna: But we know that when we don't label our children, then they get all the label.

Laetitia: That's right. I grew up thinking, like, everyone telling me, "Oh, you're always active, you cry so easily, you're super sensitive, you're moving around all the time, you go into hyperfocus mode," and all of that. It's when Zoe first went through the assessment journey and so on, when she was 18 months, I spoke to my parents and they were like, "So, when you were five, you were assessed with ADHD, and we decided not to tell you." And so, I was like, "Oh my gosh."

Laetitia: And then when Zoe was assessed with autism, the two clinicians who did the assessment with us, we had this call with Johan, my husband, and they were going through Zoe's report, and then they said, "You know, one of you is autistic, and we're not here to diagnose this person, but we can say who it is." And Johan turned like this and looked at me, and I was like, "What? I'm not autistic. It's not me. It's not me, what are you saying?" And then I went down the rabbit hole of researching, and seeking my own assessment. And yes, I am autistic. So I'm also an AuDHDer.

Brianna: Yay, welcome to the club.

Laetitia: Yay. So, I'm not a clinical psychologist, so I don't really, you know, I live through it and I've done lots of research about it, and I'm sure lots of the listener would love to hear about what does it mean to be an AuDHDer, because it's not separate. It's not, you have ADHD and you have autism, it's really like having both part of someone's everyday life, which is part of Zoe, part of myself, part of you, and part of many listeners. Yeah.

Laetitia: So, would you like to describe a bit more what it means?

Brianna: Absolutely. They're just so integrated together, it's like knitted together in a tapestry, you cannot separate them, every thread is with its counterpart. And being AuDHD is not like having two different hats, you put on one then you put on the other. I do talk about, like, oh, my ADHD is really seeking novelty this morning, I need something new and shiny, or my autism is going deep dive into this interest, but at the same time they are the one blended operating system, and you really can't separate them out. It's an and, it's that they're both there. So yeah, the autism has this really deep monotropic attention, where you go deep into whatever you're doing, but then the ADHD will want that novelty seeking and will pull you in all the shiny directions. And it feels like a tug of war sometimes, even though it's the one brain, it really feels like this push, pull, push this way, pull that way.

Laetitia: Yeah, I love that. And I love how you describe this tug of war brain, and I can really relate to that in my own lived experience, and witness it also in Zoe. She has such deep awareness about herself and her own needs, and potentially because we nurtured it and we had a very affirming approach. But also, she read The Brain Forest by Sandhya Menon, and she really understands this aspect. And yeah, the tug of war brain, such a good framing.

Laetitia: So, what are some of the challenges that this push or pull may create, and how can we flip that into strength? How can we change the narrative, and rather than saying, oh my goodness, this is really, really difficult, acknowledging the difficulty and then flipping it into how can we approach this as a strength.

Brianna: Absolutely. So let's acknowledge some of the challenges first. Let's just think about our sensory world. Let's think about how you might be hugely sensory seeking and sensory avoidant at the same time, within the same sense. So think about sound, for example. You might need to crank the music, but you might be avoiding those background chattery conversations, or the competing sounds in the environment, or the tap dripping, or whatever. There's that struggle of the tug of war there within the sensory world. Within your social world, you want to chatter, you want to join in, you want to talk, but you don't quite know where to place the words, you don't quite know where to put the phrase that you've got in your mind and that you've rehearsed. It's just really hard. So, it's hard in a social sense. It's hard with time. It's hard with emotions. There's just so many different angles. It's tricky, and it makes it hard.

Brianna: But I do think flipping it into a strength is so important. You know, neutrality is being really neutral about, like, this is who we are, and we're not hyper romanticising it, but we're saying there are strengths here that we can lean on and that we can use to help us every day. So what I would say is, think about the strengths of each part. So, it's not that autism is a part and ADHD is a part, what I've said already is that they're the whole operating system, but we do have a novelty seeking part and a very monotropic interest part. And so, we need to work with those parts and actually say, okay, what are the strengths of these individual parts, and how can we get them to work together?

Laetitia: I love that. And that's a question that I haven't sent you, but it is coming through now. So, feel free to tell me, no, I haven't scripted the answer, so I'm not going...

Brianna: ...for it. Let's do it. My ADHD brain is like, bring on the novelty.

Laetitia: So, this is something that just dropped in, how can we acknowledge and nurture that in our children? You know, this moment of, oh my goodness, I want the music, but at the same time, I don't want the noise. Or, you know, when Zoe wants to be reading her book in silence, but at the same time she wants people around her, but then she gets annoyed because we're around and so we're making noise. It's like this kind of the sensory avoiding and the sensory seeking at the same time. The deep focus, but also the need for presence. How can we support our children through that, and just making them feel safe in this internal battle?

Brianna: Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that question. I think we go back to Dan Siegel's concept of "name it to tame it." So, we need to name what's going on, and actually say to the kiddos, okay, what's ADHD wanting right now? It's wanting to move your body. What's autism wanting? It's wanting to sit very still under a weighted blanket. Okay, let's put one foot in both camps. What does your body need? Can we put a blanket on and do some rolls on the ground? Can we find some middle ground which is meeting both needs?

Laetitia: Mm, I think, yeah, name it to tame it is really important.

Brianna: Yes, name it to tame it. And so often we don't name things because of the stigma that they will create, the micro trauma that may create, if we use the right moments and the right words, it's actually very soothing. I love...

Laetitia: Yes, definitely, I think soothing is the right word. It comes back to that co-regulation, you're co-regulating with your kids by being with them and being curious about what's going on for them.

Brianna: Completely.

Laetitia: And again, this is a new question, but bring it on. I'm like, oh, I want to ask those questions which I didn't prepare. But for those of us who are parents of neurodivergent kids and we are neurodivergent, how can we at the same time acknowledge the needs and support, and co-regulate with our children?

Brianna: Yeah.

Laetitia: And regulate and acknowledge our own needs. What have you seen working, through the support that you provide those children and teenagers, which then means you support also the whole family?

Brianna: Absolutely. So we really need to think about the fact that you are holding space for every nervous system in the family, including the dogs and cats. So you need to be mindful of everyone's nervous system, and that means starting with your own, regulating your own nervous system first. So thinking about your littles, your inner child, what do you need? What do they need? Are they calling out for silence? Are they calling out for deep pressure hugs? Are they calling out just to be told that they're heard and okay? So, really meet your own needs first. And it can just be a second of, okay, little me, what do you need? And then move on to, okay, little me on the outside, little human in front of me, what do you need? So starting with yourself first, and then extending outwards to share that co-regulation around the family, I think, is really important.

Laetitia: I love that, that's so beautiful, you're so good at this one.

Laetitia: So let me go back to one scripted question, so that I stop throwing at you novelty. But what do you think is the biggest misconceptions, and you've mentioned it a little bit around changing hats and so on, but if there are any other ones about having both ADHD and autism that you'd like to clear up? Because we see lots of things on TikTok and on Instagram, when it's really like separating both, when, as you said, it's part of one programming, one system, one nervous system. So what would you like to say to those misconceptions and those myths?

Brianna: I think the first thing I want to say is, there is no look for autism or ADHD. You can't look at someone and just go, "Oh, you kind of seem like an autistic person," or, "You're giving me the vibe that you're ADHD." No, no, no, no, no. There is no look of autistic or ADHD. It is so internal, and it is their internal experience on the inside. Yes, things will come outside and we can notice those too, but it is this internal experience that we've been missing for decades. And this is why the diagnostic rates are increasing, because we're noticing all of these internalised presentations. So I think that's one myth I want to clear up. There's no look, you've met one person of that identity, you've only met one person, you need to not generalise.

Brianna: I think the other one is, I hear so often paediatricians will come back to me and say, "Oh, but they made eye contact and they have friends." And I'm like, are we kidding? Are we still there? I just want to break that myth that autistic kids, yes, we can make eye contact, because we have the resources to learn that that's what we need to do in this society. It's not safe not to.

Laetitia: So, we need to bust that myth.

Brianna: Absolutely. Nip it in the bud. And know that, again, there's no look, and autistic kids can be highly empathetic, highly social, make a lot of eye contact and navigate the social world in what looks like an allistic way, a non-autistic way. And same with ADHD. So, there's this myth that, oh, they're all hyperactive, jumping off the walls. Well, actually, they can be deeply insightful, introspective, thoughtful, and even have very calm bodies, because that inattentive side of things doesn't necessarily come with body restlessness. It can be a brain restlessness. So, yeah, those are some of the ones that I absolutely want to bust.

Laetitia: I love it. And I think so many people need to really listen to this deeply and carefully. And also all these internalised ableisms that we may have, you know, in those moments where you're like, oh, but my needs are not so important because I can mask so well, I can look at other people, I can sit quietly and listen to this boring conference topic. But yeah, actually, if you need movement, if you need, giving yourself what you need. And I know I'm very often sitting in that space, as, you know, late, not late diagnosed because ADHD was young, but late understanding of myself, that I am really having moments where I have this internalised ableism showing up.

Brianna: We all do. And we need to name that too. We all have these moments where we have this shame and this internalised ableism, where we say, oh no, my needs don't matter, or, I can get by, therefore I don't deserve the accommodations.

Laetitia: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Like, just, for instance, wearing my sunflower lanyard at the airport. It took me so long to do it. Even though I am so dysregulated when I'm at the airport and I really need accommodation. But the day I started doing it, I felt a sense of respect towards my own needs, and deep compassion.

Brianna: That's beautiful. And you'd be healing some of that trauma of, I'm different, I don't belong, to go, you know what, I'm allowed to be myself, I'm enough, and I deserve these accommodations.

Laetitia: Absolutely. I love that. You're amazing. So, something I'd like to talk to you about and ask you the question is, how can we, as parents, or as partners, or caregivers, or anyone involved in the relationship with someone who is having this tug of war way of being, this AuDHDer, in terms of burnout, in times of shutdown, in times of sensory overload, what can we do to support best someone else through that?

Brianna: Yeah, absolutely. It's not a quick answer, but I will try and reduce it to a couple of sentences for you. I think co-regulation is key. So, remembering that our nervous systems affect each other, regulate yourself first. Support really looks like validating, respecting the sensory and energy limits. So, talking together about, do you have the spoons for this today? You don't, that's cool, what can we do to make this work within our family? Reducing shame, acknowledging the internalised ableism that you probably carry too. You know, why you did it yesterday, why can't you do it today, that sort of thing. Remembering that it's a dynamic disability, that it fluctuates. Being really practical, offering scripts before we go to social places, talking about your green flag people. And then in terms of burnout, really offering rest, reducing demands, holding space rather than fixing. Rather than just getting to, well, quickly, let's fix this, fix this, let's come up with a solution. No, let's just hold space for this and sit with it for a while, so that our nervous systems can just kind of be together.

Laetitia: So much wisdom there. Oh my gosh, it's like so many different things. And the holding space is such a powerful one, yet something that many people need to learn how to do well.

Brianna: Well, we weren't taught.

Laetitia: Yeah, definitely. And that's something, you know, space holding was something that would always happen in ancient cultures and different ways of being. I'm also a sacred space holder, doing circle and things like that. Definitely, learning how to hold space, and safe space, is a critical skill that we all need to relearn, actually.

Brianna: Yes, yes, I completely agree, and it is uncomfortable, because it means sitting with uncomfortable feelings. But I have seen in my work, in myself, in my family, in my friends, I have seen people grow in their ability to hold space. So you absolutely can grow.

Brianna: Completely.

Laetitia: And so let's go through the magic wand question, which I absolutely love, is if you could wave a magic wand, and we could change how school and workplaces better recognise and support and harness the strength of AuDHD.

Brianna: Yes.

Laetitia: What would that be?

Brianna: Oh my goodness. Okay. So, I'm just thinking, if we actually started to notice how our kiddos work, like how they really work and how they work well, we could use that, and they would learn exponentially. They would not have school refusal, school can't, they would not be feeling so overwhelmed and anxious, because we would be leaning into their strengths, and we would be making space again for them to just be themselves and learn in the way they need to learn.

Brianna: Now, I know this is a magic wand question, I know this isn't possible, teachers are so overwhelmed, schools are so overwhelmed, I get that, I don't want to cast any blame on teachers. But imagine if the teachers noticed that their kiddos could problem solve big picture and little picture, and could focus on the finer details at the same time, and they approached every task like that. Imagine if they used their monotropic interests in everything. So, there's so many different ways that we could be doing this differently. And the same at work, for our peers and ourselves. If we leaned into our interests, leaned into our strengths, the way we problem solve, the way we process information, giving ourselves time to process, asking for things to be written down after verbal instructions, just all those little things that make such a big difference. That's what I would do with my magic wand.

Laetitia: And I love it. And I have seen this impacting directly my own daughter, when Zoe's teacher started using Understanding Zoe, and just understanding of Zoe's special interest at that time, and organising an activity around it, and being really understanding of that. It's like, if you want to harness her ability to learn a few things, do it around Greek mythology, because that's her spins right now. And so just harness this, everything can be about the gods and goddesses of mythology.

Brianna: You can teach maths that way. You can teach history that way. You can teach English that way.

Laetitia: And that's what they did. And it just, like, shifted everything.

Brianna: And there is really that.

Laetitia: Something else that I'm sure you work with your kiddos with, and which has been a challenge that we hear very often from other parents, and that we have faced as well and still face today, is social interaction. How can we support our kiddos with social interaction at school, or in extracurricular activities, or even ourselves? How can we support that nurturing, nourishing, positive social interaction, away from silent bullying and so on? You mentioned quickly green flag, red flag, do you want to go a bit deeper on that one? Again, it's not a scripted one, so...

Brianna: That's fine. Let's, my ADHD is on fire this morning, let's roll with it.

Brianna: So, I think in terms of social stuff, scripts are our best friends. We all have a little library in our brain that holds our scripts, and we bring them out to navigate the social world. So, giving your kiddos scripts, it is not teaching them how to be neurotypical, I really want to emphasise that, I am not saying teach them how to mask or anything like that. But scripts can be used to navigate the social world, so they can be more authentic, so that they avoid the bullying, so that they can just be themselves. So, give them scripts before a social situation that might be useful. Debrief afterwards, and just be really curious together, and play the in their shoes game. If you put their shoes on, were they stinky? Were they stinky shoes? Put them on for a second in your mind, and imagine what it would have been like for them. We're not naturally great at putting ourselves in other people's minds, because we go so deep into our own minds.

Brianna: So, I think trying to practice mentalising can be really helpful, post a social blunder, like if something's happened that wasn't great. Really trying to think through, what on earth was that bully thinking, what was going on for them, it can develop so much warmth and self-compassion, and that's a beautiful skill.

Brianna: And then in terms of green flags, I really think thinking about your green flag friends. So, what are green flags for you? What do you need and what do you want in friendships and in relationships, and really noticing when your friends do that. Now, friends can be unfriendly sometimes, especially as kids, we're all just learning and trying to do our best. And so many of our friends, if you're neurodivergent, they're neurodivergent too. So, I think really noticing, what are my green flags? And be curious about that with your kiddos. Did they show up for you today and let you stim? Did they just encourage your love of Greek mythology? Those are beautiful green flags.

Laetitia: So good, so good. And Zoe loves drama, right? She does, it's one of her special activities that she loves doing. And so, we use drama a lot at home. And I'm also a psychodrama therapist, so really acting out and facilitating those micro dramas at home really helps.

Laetitia: But something that you mentioned, which, and again, I'm doing this podcast for myself as well as for the community, so I'm asking the question that I'd like to ask, how can we educate other people and children about stimming, in a simple way? Because I have stimmed on stage a few days ago, when we won the Australian technology competition, and people came and said, oh, you say you stimmed, what is stimming? And Zoe would say that in her classroom, sometimes other children judge her when she's stimming, so she doesn't feel safe stimming. So, how can we, in simple words? So, I say it's self regulation.

Brianna: Yes.

Laetitia: Right. How would you explain, with your own expertise and experience, how can we make it accessible for everyone to understand what stimming is? Because if they understand, then they accept it.

Brianna: I would say, pair it to the thing that you're trying to get done at the time, and point out to the person, moving my body like this is helping me learn, or moving my hands like this is helping me concentrate on playing, or it's making my body feel calm. Now, calm is not the same as regulated, that's a whole other podcast, but if that helps to communicate to the other person, that can be great. So, it's helping my body feel calm, it's helping me feel regulated and connected to myself. So, I would say, pair it to what you're doing and point out to them, in a very practical sense, that it's helping you do your thing.

Laetitia: I love it. Thank you so much. Okay, quick fire question. What is one quirky habit of, interest, sorry, of yours, that makes you smile, even if sometimes it baffles others?

Brianna: So many. I'm just thinking, probably the one that baffles my wife is, I get so many packages that come to the door and I've forgotten what I've ordered. So she's like, "Oh, another one, another one." And she says to me, "I know that you've been kidnapped when the packages stop rocking up." So it's my ADHD impulse ordering things, and then the forgetfulness of what it is. But it all fits into my autistic monotropic interest. So I think that's one silly little ridiculous thing about my brain.

Laetitia: I love it, it's so good, I love that. And I'm sharing this trait as well. Like when I order something and then it arrives, I always forget. Like, Johan is like, "You have a new package." I'm like, "Oh, oh yeah, what is it?" Like, oh my gosh, a book, oh my god.

Brianna: You bring so much joy.

Laetitia: I love it. Okay, so for our listeners who loved, as much as I did, your beautiful insights and your energy, how can they connect with you, work with you, learn more about you?

Brianna: I would say, first, come and be with me on the socials, I love social media, so come and hang out on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn and TikTok, for we're just at The Psych Hive. Come and drop in and say hello, I would love that. Our website is thepsychhive.com, and we've got heaps of free resources on there, as well as some paid resources, some seminars you can watch, heaps of stuff going on. I actually have an adulting with ADHD course coming up.

Laetitia: So yeah, it's for adults who are ADHD, and it's...

Brianna: Yes, it's going to be so great. Launching first of October, and it's self paced, so just rock up any time. You just need to put a date with yourself in the diary. So you can find that on the website. And otherwise, we're all pretty full in terms of individual therapy, but we run a lot of groups, and I'm going to start doing some Zoom groups soon, so Australia wide. So just keep your eyes peeled and follow us along on socials.

Laetitia: Amazing. Thank you so much, Bri, for coming today. It was a delight to see you and hear about you. Thank you.

Brianna: So lovely to be here and chat with you, and I'm so excited for everyone to hear our chat.

Laetitia: Quick pulse check from Zoe, about being autistic and ADHD. So, Zoe, how does it feel in your brain?

Zoe: From time to time, I feel angry because it's difficult with friends, but most of the time I feel happy.

Laetitia: Thank you for sharing, Zoe. And what do you love the most about being autistic and ADHD?

Zoe: I'm very smart, I'm good with reading, and it makes it way easier to read, because ADHD makes me a faster reader. And I've got lots of talents.

Laetitia: I love that. And Zoe, which book helped you the most to understand your brain and what it means to be autistic and ADHDer? Oh, you want to show something?

Zoe: The Brain Forest. Yeah, The Brain Forest.

Zoe: Whoops, that's upside down.

Laetitia: It's okay.

Zoe: Wait, no, now it's down.

Laetitia: Thank you, Zoe, for sharing and joining this quick pulse check with us.

Laetitia: That's a wrap for The Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com. Thanks for listening.