Music therapy: Connection, regulation and neuroaffirming care with Brianna Dahlstrom

Laetitia: Welcome to Neurodivergent Pulse, where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers, and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host, Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum and founder of Understanding Zoe.

Laetitia: This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Laetitia: Hello, Brianna. Thank you so much for joining the Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Brianna: Thank you so much for having me.

Laetitia: Today, we're going to talk about music and what affirming music therapy actually looks like.

Laetitia: 'Cause when we had a conversation a few weeks ago, I really wanted to welcome you on the podcast to share about this. So before talking about this, I would love for anyone who is listening to the podcast and this interview to get to know a bit more about you. Like, before being a music therapist, you were a musician.

Laetitia: So I would love for you to take us back to the moment that you realised music was not just something you loved doing, but something that was impacting you as well.

Brianna: Yeah. So like so many people, music has always been something very important to me. And it was about, when I was kind of just getting into high school, or even before that actually, I was very interested in doing anything musical in primary school.

Brianna: So, my parents would have absolutely loved hearing me play the recorder every day. And yeah, I guess as soon as I got into high school, that just kind of grew even more, and it was probably around, maybe 14, 15, about that age, where I realised. Well, maybe not at the time I didn't realise, but looking back on it, I can really see that music in that time was everything to me.

Brianna: It was this huge part of my identity. It's where I connected to people. It's where I found confidence in myself. It was the way I was connecting with people socially. Even though I just said that. Yeah, it was a support for my mental health. It was a way that I could explore my identity as well.

Brianna: Yeah, it was just this kind of huge part of my life, and probably the thing I was doing the most was playing music.

Laetitia: Thank you for sharing that with us. And I noticed that you were going back to that time as well in bringing up some memories, and that was beautiful to witness.

Laetitia: For someone who is hearing about music therapy for the first time, would you mind introducing a bit more what it looks like, what an ordinary session may look like as well, so that they can just get a sense. Because I think with music therapy, lots of people kind of get the gist of it, but they don't really get it entirely.

Laetitia: So can you share a bit more about that?

Brianna: Yeah, definitely. So I guess the first thing is that there are lots of different types of music therapy approaches. And you see it in a lot of different settings that provide care and support. So you'll often see it in hospitals, in mental health facilities.

Brianna: You'll see it in age care. But commonly, and this is where I personally am working at the moment, in the disability sector and working with mostly NDIS clients, participants. So, I guess what music therapy can provide in the setting will dictate what it looks like. So in a rehabilitation setting, working with people that have had strokes, it'll look very different to what I'll be doing in a session.

Brianna: But for me, so I'm currently working with individual people. Every session is very different.

Brianna: It can include so many different things. I mean, I feel like, and stop me if I'm not even answering the question properly, but the way I think about music therapy is that music is kind of the seed, the theme, the topic that starts the therapeutic relationship off. It's using the kind of strong connection to music that most people have, and exploring that in a therapeutic way.

Brianna: And kind of using that interest as a seed to be able to grow into other kind of topics. And I know that's a bit of a wishy washy way to put it, but, for example, talking about someone's favourite song can end up developing into a conversation about the themes that you can, that are found in these songs, in the lyrics, how someone, how, you know, the history behind how someone's found the song, why they listen to it.

Brianna: And I guess that strong connection is, yeah, what drives music therapy. Did that answer your question at all?

Laetitia: Yes, I think you gave some answer to it, and maybe for anyone who needs a bit more specificity, building on what you said, the practice and the session is centred around the person and their special interest, and really designing for their own need, their own journey, their own special interests and things that they love, and at the same time creating this connection and this sense of safety for them to explore that deeper.

Laetitia: So if we were to describe it a bit more, it's not about knowing how to play an instrument. It's not about taking a lesson of piano or things like that. It's more going deeper, and would you like sharing with us, maybe using an example about what gets lost when people think that music therapy, it's actually a music session or a singing lesson or piano lesson. Like, what is really making a difference?

Brianna: Yeah, so there are instances where there will be, I guess, aspects of learning about music. And, this may be creating accessible instruments for people, and using, learning how to use music as a tool to regulate outside of sessions. So there is, there can be an aspect of, I guess, lessons in a way. But I guess the biggest difference is that the goal with lessons is to become a proficient player.

Brianna: And, you know, you're working to become the best musician that you can. You're practicing. While music therapy is more so about being in the music, it's not about being good, it's about the experience.

Brianna: So there isn't kind of this, you know, I like, I'm not gonna give someone feedback on their playing. I'm not gonna be like, "Oh, well, you could have done this a little bit better," because it's not about that.

Brianna: It's about connection. It's about enjoying it. It's about being able to explore it. Yeah, and I mean, it's very vulnerable to do that.

Brianna: But I think that's probably the biggest difference is the kind of goal of it and what outcome we're wanting.

Laetitia: And that's such a powerful way to actually differentiate it.

Laetitia: Like, really thinking about if you go and take piano, flute, violin lesson, whichever, or singing lesson, you want to become better at this. Whereas as you said, if you go and go for music therapy, it is about developing this relationship with yourself and music, and finding ways of how that experience may support you.

Laetitia: So I really love how you framed it. That was very, very clear. And so we learn a lot about neurodiversity affirming care, and, you know, with Understanding Zoe, we are huge advocate of that. How can we help families who are like, "Oh my gosh, listen to this podcast with Brianna. I just wanna go and find now a music therapist, and I want them to be affirming"?

Laetitia: How can they find out in a way that, yes, it's affirming care, or it is not affirming care from your experience, and what would you say to them so that they can differentiate the music therapists who are here to support the experience compared to the music therapists who are here to fix yourself or the individuals that you have under your care, your child, or anyone who is under your care, to fix them through music?

Laetitia: How can they differentiate that? What would be some ideas, some questions, some things they can look around to help them make that decision?

Brianna: Yeah. So I guess, it's a great question, and I have been thinking about it a lot and the best way to kind of put it. Well, as someone that is very passionate about providing neuroaffirming care, and also as someone that when I am getting care myself needs that, it really is about taking that strength based and resource oriented approach, and working on maximising someone rather than normalising.

Brianna: Because I really don't think. I mean, you might be able to mask and kind of live in a way where you're trying to be someone that your brain just isn't wired that way, and that's okay, but it's gonna be exhausting. And yeah, trying to grow and work on your health and wellbeing, it's not the best way of going about it because it probably won't stick for very long. So when giving neuroaffirming care, I think it's so important to truly see the person you're working with. And that's not having someone coming in and being like, "Oh, yep, this is an autistic person."

Brianna: It's having the knowledge about that and meeting them where they are, not forcing them to be anything that they're not. And it's validating, validating physical movements and communication styles, just the way, maybe really putting the time in to learn and explore someone's special interests, if that is what feels appropriate.

Brianna: But yeah, really validating someone rather than trying to correct certain behaviour. And yeah, trying, for me, I never want to focus on what someone can't do. You need to keep in mind someone's challenges and how you can work with them and build supports. But it's about what they can do and how we can build upon that.

Brianna: And really kind of grow that confidence and that feeling of mastery and, yeah, really championing someone's, the things that make them amazing, and we all have those things. Another thing I would say that's really important is the environment. And so in a sensory way, being open to changing things.

Brianna: So, lighting, volume kind of, the items that you have out physically. You know, some people don't wanna be sitting next to someone. They don't wanna be making eye contact. It's just about making it a comfortable space, I think. Yeah, I think it's a lot harder to meet goals if you're not understanding someone and seeing them as a person rather than, some kind of like, symptoms, if that makes sense.

Laetitia: Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

Brianna: No worries.

Laetitia: That was very complete. And I am just wondering, how do we know if music therapy is something for a person that we support or for ourselves? Like is it that we have an interest for music or is it more actually a curiosity? How can we, and this is, I'm asking, out of curiosity, but also I know that some of the listener may be wondering. They're like, "Oh my gosh, that sounds really lovely. How can I know if this is for me or if this is for my children or for a friend to recommend?" Like how do we know if music therapy is something that can support us?

Brianna: Yeah. I think what you said before about an interest, a curiosity, I think they're definitely the best first steps to take. And I think especially if you're finding maybe other types of the more mainstream therapies are a little bit hard or, like talk therapy isn't for everyone.

Brianna: I think music therapy is also a really kind of, the first word that comes to mind is low stakes, but that's not the word I'm trying to think of. I guess it's quite an approachable therapy, it might, it's maybe not. It can be very low intensity.

Brianna: So even coming into a therapeutic space, it potentially is a little bit less intimidating than going straight into talk therapy.

Brianna: Does that answer your question?

Laetitia: Yes, and, you know, a word that was coming to my mind, and I was hearing quite strongly as you were talking, it's like maybe a nourishing therapy because if you have an interest for music and then you go and you do affirming music therapy care, then it's something that's during and, before, during, and after you feel a sense of nourishment rather than a sense of, gosh, that was a lot, you know? Maybe there is a lot of work happening, and you're not feeling that you are doing so much of the hard work. Does it make sense? Like, you're exploring parts of yourself or you may be exploring some sensation, exploring some emotions whilst feeling nourished and nurtured by the music, and taking, like, the vibration of the music maybe taking a bit of that heavy load away.

Laetitia: I dunno, I'm just making that up because

Brianna: No, it's great.

Laetitia: it's just something that came through as you were talking.

Brianna: Yeah, absolutely. I love that word nourishing. And how it can be a protective factor, that kind of regulation that

Laetitia: Exactly.

Brianna: we do feel with music. It is definitely something that can assist us in those moments.

Brianna: And also being able to, just going in with an interest in something. I think it's, it seems very bizarre, but I think, especially as an adult, you think of a therapist space and you're like, "That's not gonna be fun."

Brianna: That it's gonna be really rough. But I think something that's so wonderful with music therapy and a lot of creative therapies is that there is so much room for playfulness.

Brianna: And that's a really beautiful thing that we can tap into.

Laetitia: I love that. Before we close this interview, I have this one question which keeps ringing in my ears, which is, sharing with us a moment that you have witnessed, whether it's within yourself or within someone that you were supporting, that showed how music can create that genuine sense of nourishment, of belonging, of, oh my goodness, I feel that this has been a beautiful time shared with the participant, the clients, the person that you are supporting.

Brianna: Yeah. One particular moment that comes to mind was when I was working with this young person, who has done, who had done a lot of different type of therapies. But was feeling as though, okay, I've, you know, I've learnt a lot of different tools.

Brianna: So this was in the mental health sector. So yeah, she felt as though she'd learnt a lot of tools that she could draw upon to support herself, but she still wasn't feeling connected to her nervous system. So logically, she knew, "Oh, okay, like I'm feeling anxious because this is happening and this is what I can do to support myself."

Brianna: But it was the grounding aspect of wellbeing and working with mental health challenges. And, we started off the session, she brought in a song that she was listening to, and we looked through it, and we kind of spoke about the lyrics and how they connected to her life, which grew into this beautiful conversation about some of the important relationships in her life.

Brianna: And then I suggested, "Well, why don't we play it?" She had an interest in piano. She hadn't played it before, but, anyone can play a piano. It may not be how some maestro would play it, but most people can press one of the keys in some way and make a sound. So she was playing the piano, and I was playing the guitar, and we ended up improvising and just playing this song for, like, 15 minutes.

Brianna: And it was beautiful. She just played the piano, and when we finished, she said to me, "Wow, that is the quietest my mind has been in a long time." And yeah, that really stuck with me.

Laetitia: Oh my gosh, that was beautiful.

Laetitia: Such a beautiful. When you said, low stakes, I think what you wanted to maybe say, and I don't wanna put words in your.

Laetitia: But, like, simple, how simple it is to relate and connect and co-create. Yet how powerful it is. Like, sometimes simple act of connection and belonging and feeling seen and heard is actually creating such deep impact.

Brianna: Yeah, I mean, music has been a huge part of human nature since forever.

Brianna: Yeah. And, sound is something that we connect with and, this is even just vibration wise. When we're in the womb, it's something that's always there. So yeah, it is both so complex and so simple, because it really does tie into human nature, I think.

Laetitia: Completely. Oh my gosh, I love it.

Laetitia: Thank you so much, Brianna, for sharing this story with us.

Brianna: Yeah, thank you for having me. It was very special.

Laetitia: For anyone who is listening to this and they're curious to learn more about your work and connect with you, I know you're working right now at Shared Space Therapy, would you mind sharing with them how they can connect with you, if it's on social, if it's a website?

Brianna: Yeah. Absolutely. So we have our website. We are on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok.

Laetitia: Okay, amazing. So we'll put all the links in the show notes for Shared Space Therapy. Thank you so much for joining us today, Brianna.

Brianna: Thank you so much for having me.

Laetitia: Quick pulse check from Zoe about being an autistic and ADHDer.

Laetitia: So Zoe, how does it feel in your brain?

Zoe: From time to time, I feel angry because it's difficult with friends, but most of the times I feel happy.

Laetitia: Thank you for sharing, Zoe. And what do you love the most about being autistic and ADHDer?

Zoe: I'm very smart. I'm good with reading, and it makes it way easier to read 'cause ADHD makes me faster reader, and I've got lots of talents.

Laetitia: I love that. And Zoe, which book helped you the most to understand your brain and what it means to be autistic and ADHDer? Oh, you wanna show something.

Zoe: The Brain Forest. Yeah.

Laetitia: You need to come here. The Brain Forest.

Zoe: Whoops, that's upside down.

Laetitia: It's okay. We'll be able to see. Right, now it's right side up.

Laetitia: Thank you, Zoe, for sharing and joining this quick pulse check with us.

Laetitia: That's a wrap for Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com. Thanks for listening.