How music supports neurodivergent brains with Tiziana Pozzo

Laetitia: Welcome to Neurodivergent Pulse, where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers, and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite-sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host, Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum and founder of Understanding Zoe.

Laetitia: This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded, it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Hello, Tiziana. Thank you so much

Tiziana: Hello, Laetitia,

Laetitia: for coming on the podcast.

Tiziana: Morning.

Tiziana: Good morning. Mm. Good mor, well, good afternoon for you, good morning for me.

Laetitia: Yeah, it's just the beauty of the online connection.

Laetitia: We can meet all across the globe. So this is where I'd like to really start by giving the opportunity for our listeners to meet you and get to know you. So, before we start, do you wanna share a bit about who you are?

Tiziana: Sure. Okay. I am a music therapist, music educator. I work in London in my holistic music centre, which was a music school until a few months ago, and then we transition into this new centre, holistic centre.

Tiziana: I've been working my whole life with children and with adults, with people with different brains, different disabilities. So music for me is really my life. And I'm a classically trained pianist, so I started with that, and then moved immediately into music therapy, music education, and wanted to connect with people, basically.

Laetitia: I love it. I love it. And actually, you describe music as something that supported you

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: with your ADHD or, you know, ability

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: before you had your own diagnosis, your own assessment, and it was a framework for what was happening. Do you wanna share a bit more about this and what was music for you as a child, and when did you first realise that it was something that you really loved?

Tiziana: Yeah. Well, I've always known that I loved it, because my mum and my dad were both musicians. My mum is a classical pianist. My dad is more just a music lover, but, you know, plays around with many instruments. So music was always in my life, always in my family. So it was kind of natural to start.

Tiziana: Yeah. I don't really remember any point in my life without music, basically.

Laetitia: Wow.

Tiziana: It was just the language, another language that we would share in the house. And, but it became very strict at very early, unfortunately, because the conservatoire in Italy, it was very strict. We're talking about 34 years ago now.

Tiziana: So I started when I was just six to play the piano, in a very traditional way.

Laetitia: Mm.

Tiziana: So sitting down, learning from a book, and I remember the sentence of my parents was like, "It's good for you to start, so you can learn how to stay seated."

Laetitia: Mm,

Tiziana: yeah. For them, piano was a way to kind of shape my brain already.

Laetitia: Yeah. But they saw it in, not in a very modern way, let's say, okay?

Tiziana: Mm.

Tiziana: So it was incredibly hard for me through the years to actually practice, stay on the piano. It was difficult to concentrate. You know, I would play two minutes, and then my brain would start thinking about something else. But because I was the daughter of two musicians, I could go fast into the music

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Tiziana: movement. So my brain was really kind of put under a lot of stress, if you want, but at the same time

Laetitia: Yeah.

Tiziana: trained very early. And music, we know now, works on a lot of executive function, activates a lot of parts of the brain at the same time. So it was a very good training for my brain, and

Laetitia: Mm.

Tiziana: and I realised when I was maybe 15, 16, that it was working on many, many different skills for me, and not only for learning the piano.

Laetitia: Yeah. I love what you said, and I'd like to kind of double-click on it or go deeper, which is all of this enthusiasm that we have or we see as parents around music, and we really want to see this connection between music and neurodivergence, and how music therapy is great for kids, without really much of an explanation of why.

Laetitia: So what is actually happening in the brain, in the body, in the soul, however you wanna describe it, when a neurodivergent individual engages with music? And I know as a child, I was really into music.

Tiziana: Mm.

Laetitia: I was listening to classical music. I was loving, you know, playing the guitar. It's just like it's really something that soothes me, but I'm very curious now to understand from your expertise what's happening.

Tiziana: Well, in two words, it's very complicated to say, but, let's just start with the fact that, yeah, the brain has the ability of activates, in a multi-dimensional way, our, sorry, music can activate the brain on a multi-dimensional way, our brain. So we can, when we are, for example, playing an instrument, we are working on our executive function, we are activating executive function, attention, working memory, coordination, flexibility.

Tiziana: You know, when we're playing in a group, for example, we have to constantly check on our self-regulation and connect with what's happening around us, so we are able to stay and play at the same time with the others. And also, simply playing with others, makes our brainwaves oscillate in different ways, so we synchronise with other people.

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Tiziana: Therefore, we are also activated from an emotional point of view. So when music is played, or also when it's just listened, there is a total activation of the brain. And

Laetitia: Mm.

Tiziana: and research has basically gone deeper and deeper and deeper, especially in the last 10 years. So there's a lot of interest now, a lot of research about music and the brain.

Tiziana: And so we know that, for example, in music therapy, we can use music in different ways. So there are so many different ways of doing music, and strategies, and techniques that we can use when we are with people that, that's why I'm saying it's quite complicated, because we can really choose one specific strategy or one specific technique, and apply it for our patient or our students in the most customised way.

Laetitia: Mm.

Tiziana: So it's not rigid, okay?

Laetitia: Yeah.

Tiziana: For example, if we're working with maybe children in the spectrum that, you know, in Autistic spectrum that have difficulties with language, we don't need to speak with them in a session. We can simply work on non-verbal and on our relationship with instruments, with their gaze, with the movement, with vocalisations.

Tiziana: So as you understand, that is just one little side of what we could do. If we are working with an ADHD patient instead, for example, we can work on regulation, anxiety, grounding. But at the same time, we can actually activate attention. So organise the nervous system through potentially body music, where we are actually activating different coordinative parts of a body.

Tiziana: We have to plan. In every situation, we can just lie down and listen to music, and use the vibration of an instrument

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Tiziana: to make us feel more connected with ourself. So it's such a huge palette of possibilities. But that's probably why it's also complex to understand what is music therapy or what can music do for me, because we might think it's just about playing an instrument, but it's about, you know, singing in circle, singing in choir.

Tiziana: So many possibilities.

Laetitia: Yes. Yes, and I love what you said around personalisation, customising to the individual, and really finding the best way to connect, 'cause it's all a question of connection, right? And this is where I feel music education like you received it, or like the perception that we may have, people from our generation, very traditional, and it's just about performance and accuracy, and you need to be on the tone, and you need to do this in this way.

Laetitia: Yeah. And that can feel really hard for neurodivergent kiddos, so that's why, like, some parents are like, "Hmm, maybe not." So a lot of thing gets missed when we see music for its primary, like, as a primary skill, I would say, rather than a tool for something else. So what do you say to those parents who see music just as a skill and as a tool, and to give them the opportunity to explore while they listen to this podcast in

Tiziana: Mm.

Laetitia: you know, interview? Let's explore music in a different way.

Tiziana: Yeah. Well, yeah, the most important thing, I think, is to try to understand that music exactly can be done in multiple ways. So it's not just about having a one-to-one session with a teacher that ask your child to be seated and read from a book or perform the same technical passage, I don't know, hundreds of times, okay?

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Tiziana: Which has its own purpose, because it still works on some functions that our brain needs to develop through life, especially with poor in executive functions, this type of, you know, practice, it actually works. But it's so intense that it has to be, like, motivated from inside. You can't just

Laetitia: Yeah.

Tiziana: ask neurodivergent person to stay hours on the piano and practice, which was what was asked to me.

Laetitia: Yeah.

Tiziana: So, my suggestion is to potentially look out for, first for teachers that are also music therapists. So

Laetitia: Yeah.

Tiziana: always have a look, for somebody that has the double vision, okay?

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Tiziana: They can teach your child an instrument, but at the same time they can take care of a whole individual and understand their needs and especially take inspiration from the ideas of a neurodivergent person.

Tiziana: Because obviously they come with a lot of ideas, a lot of impulses, a lot of creativity. So that can be a very rich source where we can take a, and then create the class on that.

Laetitia: Yeah.

Tiziana: Another way is to do group music making instead of one-to-one sessions. And if a facilitator is a skilled music therapist or has studied, you know, the general development of a child, so always look at the curriculum of a teacher and actually ask question.

Tiziana: In group you can work on the same executive functions that are really important for developing the abilities of playing on an instrument without having to go through the technical stages.

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Tiziana: So you can learn how to play, for example, in synchronicity with everybody else, and that requires a lot of attention, a lot of flexibility, planning, coordination.

Tiziana: If you are, for example, in a band, which is always the best thing in my experience, and somebody else makes a mistake, you have to stay, you have to regulate your frustration. You don't have to leave a room just because somebody keeps making a mistake. So there's a lot of control, on impulses as well, you know?

Tiziana: So for me, making music in groups and always taking care of the approach is the key for the parents to say, "Okay, my child is in a safe place, and music is going to be beneficial instead of traumatic," basically.

Laetitia: Yeah. Oh, I love that. So what you said around how it can help you experience different emotions, different sensations, explore different capacity and go into the flow, like I find with music, you can find a kind of sense of flow

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: if you are sensitive to it, you know?

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: And we know how some artists really say how they're neurodivergent, and actually music was a big outlet for them

Tiziana: Mm-hmm.

Laetitia: of expression and regulation and connection.

Tiziana: Mm-hmm.

Laetitia: So I love all of that. And so in your approach, you're really cooperative. I can hear that it's really child-led or adult-led, but like really led by the individual and the group, which is a big different position to what the perception I have around music education, you know

Tiziana: Yes.

Laetitia: having been in this kind of very scholar approach and, you know, very rigid approach, which was not really working for me. So can you give us an example of what a session look like so that those parents who are listening to this and are not living in London, if you're living in London, check out Music Tree, but if you're not living in London, what can they look for to make sure that any music therapy that they're going to go with their child is actually child led, it's actually cooperative, it's actually affirming

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: it's really supportive? How does that look like in your own space, and what do they need to look for?

Tiziana: Okay, so in our own space, it looks like a very inclusive situation. So we have created multiple courses and multiple paths for which, for every different needs, okay? So for example, we have sessions where the parents are in the groups because the child might need the presence of an adult, even if the kids are a bit older.

Tiziana: Or we have groups for piano, groups for violins, groups for ukuleles, or multi-instrumental groups. So we've really tried to create a lot of different options. So we need to get to know the child, and then we kind of decide where to go in the different settings of a school.

Tiziana: But yeah, I think that the most important thing is to check that the music teacher that they approach doesn't come only from a rigid perspective of classical music, but potentially they have a repertoire that involves jazz, improvisation, composition. So already a musician that have learned music in an embodied way, and not just

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Tiziana: through studying something that is written by somebody else. Because the problem is that when they come from, when we come from classical music, we have taken book, and we have simply replicated or learned how to interpret it best

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Tiziana: in the best possible way, the music written by somebody else. So there's also a lot of judgement and a lot of pressure on that, 'cause you feel like you always have to play it at a certain level.

Laetitia: Mm.

Tiziana: Instead, go to maybe a jazz musician or somebody that improvise or compose their own songs, their own pieces. They already come from a much lower level of self-judgement, and therefore they can accept better the ideas of the children and integrate them in the process of learning, and which is fundamental for neurodivergent people because if you're not interested in what you're doing, there's no way you're actually putting any effort in it.

Tiziana: Yeah, for sure. If somebody tell you no, you need to do it, doesn't work. So yeah, I think that in our school, we really try to operate with this cooperative process.

Laetitia: Mm.

Tiziana: If they're coming in the groups, the facilitator observe the groups and creates the activities, also accepting the ideas of the children, okay?

Tiziana: Even in a

Laetitia: Mm.

Tiziana: piano group. If instead they are in a violin session, the violin teacher is also a songwriter and a jazz musician and a classical musician. So, you know, you have to really check on the curriculum of a teacher, the CV of a teacher, to really understand what is their perspective, and ask question, ask a lot of questions on what is their goal.

Tiziana: Is their goal to make your child

Laetitia: Pass exams

Tiziana: or is actually nurturing their musicality and using music to develop other skills.

Laetitia: Yeah. I love that.

Tiziana: But we'd also

Laetitia: I

Tiziana: work on a kind of a critical place here, because in our society at the moment, we tend to move students from many activities, one activity to the next.

Tiziana: So one day is a swimming, one day is dance, one day is music. And this type of fragmented learning does not actually serve, in my opinion, a neurodivergent child that much. Even if we think like, "Oh, but he needs to do many things," because otherwise they get bored, because otherwise they want to watch TV or they want to go and play video games.

Tiziana: But it's actually nurturing a deeper sense for one passion

Laetitia: Mm.

Tiziana: that will really, really then allow them to work on those executive functions that are needed to have success in life. So going through frustration, going through difficult moments, understanding that there are, you know, yeah, ups and downs in learnings.

Tiziana: And so this is what we are seeing at Music Tree at the moment. This is a bit of the difficulty that we are observing.

Laetitia: Yeah.

Tiziana: And we're trying very hard with our families to say, "One instrument a week. It's enough. They don't need three instruments a week." You know?

Laetitia: But it's so true that

Laetitia: and I need to remember the title of this book. But it's so true that now we are kind of putting so much on children around multiple activities, that then it's kind of reducing their capacity, because we are asking them to go in those different setting and to, so it's more transition, it's more demand

Tiziana: Yes.

Laetitia: it's more expectation, it's new environment and so on, rather than going and doing this one thing

Tiziana: Yes.

Laetitia: and focusing on that passion. And I know for me it was horse riding. Like, I was just

Tiziana: Ah.

Laetitia: all the time, you know

Tiziana: Yes.

Laetitia: with the horses. And it was really something that was a deep special interest, and giving me so much.

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: And yeah, the music was something as well that was really deep, like singing and musical instruments. So I'd say for me it was horse riding and, like horses or just being with horses, and music and singing together, music and singing together. But yeah, I agree with you. And that's what we did with our own family.

Laetitia: We stripped back the layer.

Tiziana: Yes.

Laetitia: At some point we were doing so many things, whereas now it's only two things a week.

Tiziana: Yes.

Laetitia: And it's singing and music together and gymnastic. And that's the two thing that the girls are diving deep. So this is an invitation, and again, no judgement whatsoever, but just exploring what's working actually

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: for you and your family, and just questioning what is society pushing on us, and what is really helping your family. And I know that there are some family who are like, "No, actually, for me, that's what's working." But yeah, exploring and reviewing what is

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: part of the societal norm, what is part of our, like, things that really help our family

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: a little bit.

Tiziana: It's like when you read about watching TV with your children, and they tell you, "Watch a long movie instead of watching 10 episodes of Bluey one after the other," 'cause we need to work on sustain attention instead of fragmented and divided attention. So it's kind of the same metaphor.

Tiziana: If you think about your week and the long-term learning of your child, it's better to watch, you know, Cinderella, that is a very slow movie than watch 10 episodes of Bluey, because it works better for the brain. So with learning is the same. Slowing down, taking time, getting bored, which is super hard, and I know because I have a child that requires a lot of attention in that sense.

Tiziana: But we notice that when she has, you know, routine as well and, as well just a few things that she can grow into, then they produce a much better result at the end.

Laetitia: Yeah. And this is where, like, it's all about identifying what's working for your child and what's supporting them. And for anyone listening to this, you are the expert of your child, and you know what's best for them.

Laetitia: This is the same, because I really know that there are things that we can approach so differently, and this is an invitation for everyone listening to this to approach it differently. So as we are reaching the end of this episode, I wanted to ask you, like, for any family who is listening to this episode, and they've tried to get into music, and the teacher may not have been the right one, which was the case for us previously, either, you know, for this child or the setting or the teacher, and they're not really sure, what would you like them to know?

Laetitia: What would you like them to explore? Or what question do they need to ask to make sure that this is a right space for them?

Tiziana: Yeah. Well, they have to check on the, first of all, ask the child, "Did you like it? You didn't like it?" Okay?

Laetitia: Yeah.

Tiziana: So really, really have a kind of a metacognitive approach with their own children.

Tiziana: And then support them, through the week. So it's not just about attending the class once a week, attending the music session, but potentially having an approach with a teacher that asking them, "How can I support my child through the week? Can I come into the session and actually observe what you're doing so I can support my kid better during the week?"

Tiziana: Otherwise, it becomes like you play the ukulele once a week, and then you forgot until the week after. And therefore, then what happens is that the child will stop earlier, will stop

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Tiziana: music earlier, because they don't see the point. They don't progress. And as soon as they find the first difficulties, they would stop.

Tiziana: So it's very important to get involved in the process of learning music. In our school, at Music Tree, we offer classes for the parents as well.

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Tiziana: So often families come and take their own class, and so when they go home, they can support their child better. And I think that they are doing, you know, a lot of effort, some of them, because it's not simple to go back to music maybe after 30 years.

Tiziana: But at the same time, it creates a new connection with their own children and it's something that they really value.

Laetitia: Yeah.

Tiziana: And then yet don't really care about exam and performance. That's never the ultimate goal in learning. It's just an external validation, an external motivation that make you think that your child is going through learning, but actually potentially is just pushed through steps

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Tiziana: instead of people internalising the motivation or and their own interests. So for me

Laetitia: Yeah.

Tiziana: these are the most important thing that we try to explain to the families when they come to Music Tree.

Laetitia: I would like Music Tree to open in Sydney, hey?

Tiziana: Well, actually, this is very similar, there is a very amazing school in Sydney, actually.

Tiziana: Somebody that I know works with me, so I will definitely tell you where, which one.

Laetitia: Oh, yes. Please do. Please do, and we can put it in the show notes. Like, that would be so good if you have, like, a resource somewhere on your website or a cheat sheet or whatever that we could add

Tiziana: Mm-hmm.

Laetitia: as part of the show notes if anyone would like to find the right school for them, to explore with their neurodivergent child or for themselves.

Laetitia: And, you know, it's very interesting what you share, because it's actually what we did intuitively when Zoe, intuitively, when Zoe started playing the guitar, took my guitar out, and it was so bad, like I needed to fix everything

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: because I hadn't touched it in years. And, you know, we played together, and she actually taught me what she was learning.

Laetitia: And just her teaching me things

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: was a way for her to really build up her confidence

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: and for us to have a beautiful connection. And, yeah, we play the harmonium as well together. It's just like those little moment of connection which are so precious when you have a neurodivergent child and you're neurodivergent

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: yourself.

Tiziana: Well, and that should happen in the session as well.

Laetitia: Yeah.

Tiziana: So the, should be able to ask what would you like to do today? Well, how would you like to progress? Where was it difficult? So really open the conversation and create the class on the spot instead of starting from the book.

Laetitia: I love it.

Laetitia: So talking about a book, very quickly before we wrap up, you have a book actually that is focusing on all of this. Do you wanna tell us the title and a bit about it, and then we can close the episode?

Tiziana: Well, the,

Tiziana: it's a book that will actually be published in Italian first. It's just about music and executive function, and all basically that we can do as teachers and educators, not just musicians, but also, teachers, normal teachers, to consider what's going on in the brain of a children when they are planning their activities.

Tiziana: So the book will be basically going around macro structures instead of smaller activities. So every class will be planned with a wider idea of cooperating with a child in the class. And that's main, maybe, the main focus of the book really.

Laetitia: I

Tiziana: love it. So it hasn't been super simple to write it.

Laetitia: Yeah, I imagine.

Tiziana: It's quite innovative. Not even because of activity, but it was more just like a kind of a pedagogy behind that.

Laetitia: Yeah. Amazing. Yes, because you're teaching lots of people about that. So how, if anyone is listening to this and they wanna connect with you, they wanna ask any question, any follow-up question, where can they find out more about you?

Laetitia: If they're based in London, if they wanna connect with Music Tree, how can they do that?

Tiziana: Yeah. Music Tree is in London, so if they want to come straight to our sessions, they can obviously. But otherwise online they can find me on Instagram, so it's, @tiziana.musictree. And then our website, musictreeuk.com.

Tiziana: And in there we will start from September actually a new kind of membership circle for families, where we're bringing in, episodes and it's not a podcast, it's like proper webinars and masterclasses for families, including activities, things that they can do at home, and other experts.

Tiziana: So we're starting really bringing the communication now to the families and talking about the importance of music for their kids

Laetitia: Ooh.

Tiziana: and for themselves as well. So it's really

Laetitia: Amazing.

Tiziana: a good start, yeah.

Laetitia: Thank you so much

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: Tiziana, for your time today

Tiziana: Thank you.

Laetitia: and your expertise and experience,

Tiziana: Thank you.

Laetitia: bringing music into our life.

Tiziana: Thank you. Thank you. It's

Tiziana: been very lovely to speak with you, and congratulation for this podcast and all the wonderful work you do, 'cause it's really great.

Laetitia: Aw, thank you. It means a lot.

Tiziana: Yeah, absolutely. I love the sessions. I listened to other episodes before, so it's really, really useful for families.

Laetitia: Super useful. Aw,

Laetitia: thank you so much.

Tiziana: Yeah.

Laetitia: Welcome, Zoe, for another episode of the Neurodivergent Pulse, and I am going to ask you a question right now. Zoe, what kind of pictures or visuals help you remember what to do?

Zoe: Um, the kind that, like, it, like, says everything. Like, it says, for example, the rules. Like, we use kind voices and words. And also the pictures that bring you to another world.

Laetitia: And where do you see more often those visual, and how do they help you?

Zoe: Um, I mostly see them in the class, and they help me by telling me what I should do next and how the world really is.

Laetitia: So which one is your favourite visual of all of them?

Zoe: Um, we've got this very nice picture in my class of Maria Montessori, sitting down with children reading a book.

Laetitia: Mm.

Laetitia: And you like this picture?

Zoe: Yeah.

Laetitia: What does it say? It's in...

Zoe: It doesn't say anything. It's just a picture.

Laetitia: Yeah, but, I mean, what does it mean for you when you see that picture?

Zoe: Um, it means others have already been in the school and like me.

Laetitia: Mm.

Laetitia: Thank you, Zoe, for sharing today.

Zoe: Bye.

Laetitia: Bye. That's a wrap for Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com.

Laetitia: Thanks for listening.