Supporting communication through connection with Alana Cameron

Laetitia: Welcome to Neurodivergent Pulse, where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers, and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite-sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host, Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum, and founder of Understanding Zoe.

Laetitia: This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was, and always will be Aboriginal land.

Laetitia: Hello, Alana. Welcome to the Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Alana: Thanks for having me.

Laetitia: Oh, it's a joy to have you on the podcast. So we actually met in person in Noosa during this beautiful,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: conference that happened over there. And I know that some people who are listening to this episode may not know anything about you, and I would love for you to take us back to the moment when you decided to commit to the way NeuroNurture is set up, to the work that you do as a speech therapist with NeuroNurture.

Alana: Yeah, so that was, I think three years ago I kind of made the leap. I had worked in non-for-profit organisations. I'd worked in private practices. And at the time I was working at a school for kids with a disability, and when I was at the school I was also getting diagnosed myself and getting assessed for autism and ADHD.

Alana: And being in all those different environments, I needed to do something differently because none of those were working for my brain, but also how I wanted to practice as a speech therapist and what morals and values I held. I wasn't seeing them all consistently between the different organisations and frameworks.

Laetitia: I love it. Thank you for sharing,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: that story and where it comes from. And you mentioned, you know,

Alana: Mm.

Laetitia: working in a school with children who are either neurodivergent or other disability, and I think that we tend to look at communication as one of the last things that can, you know,

Alana: Mm.

Laetitia: impact a child's experience.

Laetitia: So I would love for anyone who is listening to this, who may be a parent or may be a teacher, to actually share a bit about what do they miss when it comes to communication? What are the things that they can look for? Because they tend to focus on behaviours, which are the external expression of things.

Laetitia: Yeah. So how can we help them be curious around communications?

Alana: Well, everything, every behaviour is some form of communication. So at the heart of it, that's where we should all be looking at in terms of what are they communicating. So if they're externalising, you know, really physical behaviours, they're communicating they're upset about something most of the time.

Alana: If they're dysregulated and sensory seeking, they're communicating a need that their body is seeking and searching for as well. So it's not just purely what words, you know, are they missing or that type of thing, it's also even if they have all the words when they're regulated and calm, they're still not accessible clearly in the moments when they're dysregulated, when they're using physical actions or intense verbal actions towards others to communicate something.

Laetitia: I love what you just said because indeed, when you think about it, everything is a form of communication.

Alana: Mm-hmm.

Laetitia: Your physical stimming,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: or, you know, violence,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: towards yourself or other people.

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: Whether it's moving, singing, humming,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: all of those are form of communication, yet I think, and this is a conversation we had on the podcast previously with previous guests,

Alana: Mm.

Laetitia: Fiona, if you listen to this and wanna search for it, is we tend to go for speech as the way to communicate, which is very neuronormative.

Alana: Mm.

Laetitia: And I think it's also coming from the name, being speech pathologist.

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: Like,

Alana: Don't start me on the name of speech pathologist at all. Like, it's like a tiny,

Laetitia: I think it's a

Alana: frustration, part of our job.

Laetitia: Yeah. It's such a frustration within the different affirming speeches that I've talked to and, yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing a change there, and it will also help us as parents to advocate for the fact that we,

Alana: Mm.

Laetitia: need speechy as part of our care team. Whether our children are starting to use some words or whether they are starting to develop a way to communicate with words, actually they need the speechy for all the things.

Laetitia: Mm. So yeah, so that's a big thing, which actually is,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: weaving it beautifully to our next question, which is something all the time is really annoying me, is when I hear people in a moment of dysregulation, whether it's myself or whether it's my children or whether it's someone else who's neurodivergent being like, "Use your words, use your words."

Alana: Mm. Mm.

Laetitia: Yet sometimes it's not really accessible. So what would you,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: like to say to any parents, teacher, or anyone who is surrounding a neurodivergent individual, whether it's a child or an adult? How can they support them in those moments where they're actually unable to use their words? What can you do,

Alana: Yes.

Laetitia: to help them in those moments?

Alana: Yes. So instead of expecting words, it's around, it's using co-regulation, because nervous systems speak well before the words or however we communicate come out. So it's less words the better, no questions. It's just being present and getting on their level away from them, and modelling calmness, modelling what they can do in that moment.

Alana: Instead of, you know, throwing a pillow at someone, it's modelling throwing a pillow at the wall or at the bed, or punching a pillow on the bed if they're needing that kind of outlet. But also if they're needing more calmness, it's sitting and, you know, doing Lego yourself, you know, away from them so then they can naturally just come over to you when they're feeling ready to do that instead.

Alana: That co-regulation is the answer for so many moments of dysregulation that gets missed a lot.

Laetitia: Mm. I love what you say, and at the same time, as a parent myself, neurodivergent, I know I'm supposed to do that. I'm not really doing it. Does that make sense?

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: When I see my child or a friend being really dysregulated, I really struggle to model calm.

Laetitia: I guess,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: it's this level of connection potentially with the frustration, with the pain, and I,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: I really struggle to model this. So do you have any tips for anyone, and personally, selfishly for me, around how can I call in that ability that you have as Speechy, that I know many therapists have, and I'm so impressed, you know, when I get to see my children's occupational therapy in action.

Laetitia: You know, how they,

Alana: Mm-hmm.

Laetitia: get to be so regulated in moments where there is deep dysregulation happening in my own child. So can you give some tips to us?

Alana: Yeah. It's, the main thing is you need to know your own dysregulation cues, which comes into play around that re-parenting framework.

Laetitia: Mm.

Alana: So thinking about, what do I feel when something is triggering me?

Alana: Do I feel my thoughts, are they racing? Is it my heart rate gets really high? Is it I just kinda wanna snap and, like, yell out at someone a whole bunch of words that don't make sense? And recognising when that's happening so then you can first come back to yourself as much as you can before you then regulate with the child, which is a very hard skill, and we're not taught to do it as humans.

Alana: Like, no one teaches us how to do that. I've had to do a lot of my own work and my own therapy to work out all my cues and triggers as well.

Laetitia: Mm-hmm.

Alana: Doesn't mean I get it perfect. Some days as well, if my client kid has, you know, lost their rocker and is flipping their lid, I have to work extra hard to stay in my body to help them co-regulate.

Alana: Mm. We're not perfect. We're all humans, and we all have our own nervous systems. But the biggest thing is try and take time to learn what does it feel like when I'm about to lose, flip my lid,

Laetitia: Yes.

Alana: essentially.

Laetitia: Yes. Thank you for sharing that. And if we go back into the classroom, which you've been part of this, and you've witnessed it, and which someone, which sometimes feel a bit of a black box for those of us who are parents. You know, we haven't been sitting in the classroom.

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: We don't really know the reality of a teacher, of an educator in, you know, outside of school care or in daycare. It's really, like,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: something we juggle with. So what pattern do you see within those environments that may make it even harder for those kiddos, neurodivergent, to communicate, and what do you see as a need to shift in that space?

Alana: Yeah. It's, a big thing is staffing issues, which is out of our control, but there's not enough staff to support the kids. Especially in primary school and high school, it's usually one staff member for 20 to 30 kids.

Laetitia: Mm.

Alana: Which, you know, is 20 or 30 nervous systems to look after and try regulate.

Alana: Like, that's a kind of impossible task. We're asking these teachers and educators to do and access. Because coming back to nervous systems speak before words do, so the teacher's nervous system speaks for the whole class, and then the class and the peers, we all kind of feed off each other subconsciously, unknowingly.

Alana: So that then naturally influences our neurodivergent kids where we get dysregulated more quickly and sensory input is higher because we are taking in more of the world at a higher percentage. That means we can flip our lids even quicker because we are noticing and picking up both other people's bodies and cues, but also just environmental, light, sound, smells, kids tapping their pens or that type of thing.

Alana: We can really pay attention to them instead.

Laetitia: Yes. Definitely. So, what, something simple, and it was not part of the question I shared with you ahead of time, so,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: that's okay, I didn't think about it. But what one could do then in a classroom to support those 30-odd nervous system? I know there are many things that are out of reach, you know, saying, "Oh, we need,

Alana: Mm-hmm.

Laetitia: more people in the classroom," and so on. Unfortunately, it's, as you said, out of their control. What could one do in their classroom setup or within the daycare environment,

Alana: Yes.

Laetitia: to try and support as much as possible everyone's nervous system,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: and including the neurodivergent folks in the classroom?

Alana: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is be a human first before your job because that's when, as humans, we want to connect to another human. So if we focus on that, we're focusing on connection, and connection is what regulates us. When we have that safe person, when we have that rapport built with someone, and that sense of safety with someone, that's what's gonna really help connect and regulate with everyone else in the room.

Alana: Just coming back to be a human first with your kids, whether they're the little three-year-olds or they're the, you know, 13, 15-year-olds at high school, is just be a human first with them and want to understand them because teachers do. They're like, you know, a powerhouse source of a human and know their students inside and out throughout the year.

Alana: So if we just keep coming back to be human first to connect with them, then they will see more success in the other ways.

Laetitia: Hmm. Yeah. I like this simplicity of connection. Connection,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: over anything else, like finding that,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: moment of connection. And how can one connect in moments when a child is having a massive meltdown, or they're having a shutdown in the classroom, or they're, you know, being violent.

Laetitia: Mm. How can they come back to this connection? Do you have any,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: example or anything to really help teacher, educator, or even parents who are maybe looking after multiple children at once?

Alana: Yep. Yep. Biggest things are probably don't push them if, especially if they're shutting down. Don't ask them to keep doing the thing or ask them more questions.

Alana: They're shutting down. Their frontal lobe, which is where our logical thinking is, is turned off. They can't access that. So, and around this would be the same for, you know, physical aggression and things is frontal lobe's offline. There's no one home to reason with, to communicate with, so you kinda have to ride it out with them.

Alana: So outside of obviously safety within the room and other students and things, after that is just being present in a safe space near them so they know they're there, that you're there. And you could even say, "I'm here when you're ready. I can see you're super frustrated, sad, angry. That's okay." But I'm here.

Alana: Mm-hmm. So coming back to validation, which I think a lot of us forget to do, is it's okay if you have feelings, no matter what's kinda happening. Because a feeling is always valid because it's what you're feeling in the moment, right? So you can't make that up. You can't fake being angry. You can't fake crying hysterically.

Alana: It's what's coming up for that human in that moment.

Laetitia: Oh my gosh, the validation point is such an important one, and I was reading the other day a research paper around how ADHD-er kiddos, until they reach 12 year old, they're getting 20,000 more times,

Alana: Mm.

Laetitia: negative feedback on how,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: they are. Yeah. It's crazy when you think about it, 20,000 times more, and that's why we tend to grow up as neurodivergent adults saying sorry all the time.

Laetitia: Mm. I had to learn so much about, of saying sorry, and still today I say sorry,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: a lot. And my hubby is often telling me, "Why do you say sorry?" Or, you know,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: friends or colleagues, peers, they're like, "Why do you say sorry?" Yeah. You know? It's not your fault. But it's just this thing,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: that I have internalised around,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: I must be doing something wrong because I don't do it in the way society and norms are expected of me. So that's such a good point, validation. And I know that I am not perfect at this either, so when I, you know, say that is, I know that I, myself as a parent, often not starting with validation.

Laetitia: So that's such a powerful reminder. Like, how can we start validating first, being curious, and connecting? Mm. So important. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Do you have a framework or an acronym to help you remember those steps? And sorry,

Alana: No.

Laetitia: to pose the question. But

Alana: Maybe I should. Maybe I should,

Laetitia: Yeah.

Alana: write that down, as a community love acronyms. My brain loves acronyms, so I was thinking,

Laetitia: Yeah.

Alana: like how might we create an acronym? Okay, we'll come back on the podcast and share an acronym for you. If anyone is like me, for, likes an acronym. I know it's really helpful,

Laetitia: Yeah.

Alana: in my brain. I'll have a think.

Laetitia: Yeah.

Alana: I'll have a think.

Alana: But yeah, when you're, you know, if you think about, say, with your husband for example, and you're having an argument, which happens, your brain doesn't give up until it feels heard. Like, that's the innate kinda subconscious kinda, what we're trying to communicate, is we just want you to hear what I'm saying or understand what I'm saying to you.

Alana: So same for any age of nervous system human, is they're doing the thing because they're not getting validated.

Laetitia: Mm.

Alana: They're trying to communicate in a way their body knows how to make that known and obvious. And I think that's something we also really miss too.

Laetitia: Yes. Yes, the feeling heard, feeling seen, feeling understood.

Laetitia: Yeah. Which, we know through our research that 93% of adults while raising neurodivergent kiddos don't feel heard, understood, and seen. Yeah. And you know, it must be the same thing when they're kiddos. So yeah, very good point. Correct. I just wanna ask you one question. Can you tell us a beautiful story when you've seen genuine support happening, whether it's in a classroom, whether it's in, you know, a family, whether

Laetitia: When you found a neurodivergent kiddo being so well-supported, being truly understood, truly seen. I'd love for us to kind of wrap this up in a,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: in a good story, if that makes sense. You know, like the Disney movie.

Alana: Yep. Yep, absolutely. I think a story coming to mind of a recent visit at a high school I did that was the most beautiful thing I'd seen for a little while was after a morning of the client kinda getting up and down in a chair, walking around the room, being dysregulated, when they were completing a task that she enjoys, 'cause it's play script based kind of work.

Alana: There was no prompting to get her to start the task because she loved it. The teacher was there next to her to support if she needed, but they were looking at each other and smiling at each other while the class members were all taking turns reading a play script. And my client was just in the, her element doing that.

Alana: And seeing that connection of the teacher and the child together, and seeing how easily that meant the child getting the learning task done, and there was no, you know, lots of prompting to start it, "Why aren't you doing it?" You know, all that type of thing. It just happened because there was connection, and I could feel the connection from the other side of the room,

Laetitia: Mm.

Alana: which was very, very beautiful.

Laetitia: I love this, which is real, like, how do we make space for those moments, those precious moments of connection to happen?

Alana: Mm.

Laetitia: And I love to go, like, once every six months or something. I go and I observe within the classroom of my daughters. Like, we have this opportunity. They attend a Montessori school, so I know,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: we're kind of in a privileged situation. But I go and I sit in a corner in the room, and I just observe the classroom, and there are so many tiny moments of deep connection happening, whether it's between children doing a piece of work together, or with one educator, or with the teacher.

Alana: Mm.

Laetitia: Like, really those moments where you find them connecting over something, like a special interest or,

Laetitia: And they enter,

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: that flow, and you feel the time is expanding.

Alana: Yeah.

Laetitia: You enter that space of flow where actually it may be just five minutes, but you feel that sense of expansion happening. So that's a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing.

Alana: No worries.

Laetitia: So Alana, for anyone who's listening to this and like, "Oh my goodness, I wanna, you know, learn more about Alana. I wanna explore her work, her content, everything that she offers," how can they connect with you?

Alana: Most usual way to connect is through my Instagram, which is @neuronurture.co. And I also have an email list that's directed towards teachers, but parents still can get a lot out of it too, which they can just sign up through on my website, which is also www.neuronurture.co.

Laetitia: Amazing. Thank you so much.

Laetitia: And definitely if you're a teacher listening to this or parents, just go and explore. Thank you so much for making the time today to record this podcast and have a chat about,

Alana: No worries. Thank you.

Laetitia: your approach of how we can get better support in the classroom and beyond.

Alana: No worries. Thanks for having me.

Laetitia: Welcome to the Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Laetitia: We're joined by Zoe for a quick pulse check. So Zoe, I'm curious, what does it feel like when you have to hide your true self at school or with some friends?

Zoe: It makes me feel angry, and it's easier to blame it on someone else.

Laetitia: Thank you for sharing that with us. And what helps you then to know when you're safe to be the real you?

Zoe: When I'm with people that I love and people that help me.

Laetitia: Hmm. Thank you, Zoe, for joining us for a quick pulse check. That's a wrap for Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it.

Laetitia: You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com. Thanks for listening.