Play is learning: How curiosity helps neurodivergent kids thrive with Angie Casella & Kaycee Larney

Laetitia: Welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse, where we explore the often misunderstood world of neurodivergence with experts, parents, teachers and therapists. Grounded in lived experience, each bite-sized episode gives you something practical to try. I am your host, Laetitia Andrac, AI expert, neurodivergent mum and founder of Understanding Zoe. This podcast is recorded on Dharawal country. I acknowledge that sovereignty was never ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Laetitia: Hello, welcome to The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast.

Laetitia: Hello. Good morning. I am just loving, as I said offline, how you're both with your sunny outside. It's totally appropriate to your work and your personality. I just love that. So before we start and we get into the conversation about play and how play is learning and all of the juiciness that you will share with us, I would love for each of you to introduce yourself quickly and also share how did you end up doing the work that you're doing. You go first.

Angie: I go first. Okay. So I'm Angie. I am the younger sister of the two. How we ended up doing the work that we're doing started when I had my firstborn son. I previously worked in a corporate office environment, not outside in sunnies. And I couldn't see myself going back to sort of that middle to senior management, an hour commute into the city. I just wanted to spend more time with my child. So it was a very selfish business endeavour. It wasn't one of these like let's see a gap in the market and make something wonderful. It was, I wanted to give my son at the time the childhood that I felt he deserved and a mum that was around. And I couldn't do that on my own. I needed an educator because I didn't have a background. So I peer pressured Kaycee into started the business with me, which is my sister. And her baby, because she was also on maternity leave, was only six weeks old.

Laetitia: Wow.

Kaycee: Yes, that's your segue. And that's how it started. I'm Kaycee. I have been an early educator since I was 18 and I'm 39 now, so 21 years. I was in the long daycare system for about, I don't know, 14, 15 years prior to starting Curious Me with Ang. And then Angie peer pressured me into starting a business with her and I did not want to say yes, but I did.

Angie: I even got our mum on site. So I got our mum on side to help.

Kaycee: You are absolutely in no way my boss. This is a fifty fifty situation. And then it took off from there. So we kind of started as this little play group. And then it's kind of just

Angie: we've just grown very organically with what our families have asked or what they feel they need, or yeah, look, it has grown very organically. There hasn't been, I shouldn't really say it, but there hasn't been like a set business plan. It hasn't been strategic moves. We've just gone with what our families, our community, the heart of the business has asked for, and that's how we've grown over time. And that has happened alongside, I suppose, the growth of our own children, welcoming another child because I had a second son. And the more we learned, so the more sort of professional development and whatnot that we did, and the more we learned about play, the philosophy I think was always there. You were always, Kaycee was always very steadfast in the way she wanted to approach, I suppose, the play group for lack of better terms. She wanted it to be very free and very unstructured, very child led, or the children make up their structure, and at the time that was not a thing. It was very hard for me to get my head around that this could actually be something. So there was a lot of learning in the first 12 months for me as somebody who

Kaycee: I'm not very good at talking. I always say I can walk the walk. If you come and watch me do my thing and be with the children and in the space, you'll get a whole lot more than what I can tell you, because I'm just not great with words. So I couldn't explain or articulate to Angie a whole lot into what I wanted to achieve. But I think once we nutted it out, I had to be willing to observe and then go and research.

Angie: Yeah. So there was a lot of teething issues in the beginning, because I thought that some of these concepts were absolutely insane, and then I would go away and do the research and be like, oh, she's actually not crazy. This is actually founded in science and research and theory and philosophy. Yeah.

Laetitia: I love it. Thank you for the both of you for sharing about the origin story of this beautiful partnership and this sisterhood of helping children and parents reclaim play. I love that. And so many adults who, you know, I know I talk with, or it was even my own perception before exploring free play and learning a bit more about play. It's like play is a break from learning. So you learn and then you have time to play. It's like you do this and then you have time to play. And I would love for you to define play, because play is learning, which is really something that I know you believe in. So how do you define play, and why is it so critical part of thriving as neurodivergent children?

Kaycee: I think the hardest part about defining play is that there's no universal definition. So depending on what sector you come from or what background you come from, if you go and look up, I suppose, your frameworks or whatever those overarching documents are, and you look at the definition of play, it will be different. We define play as per the Playwork Principles, which is from the scrutiny group, and play for us is freely chosen, self-directed and intrinsically motivated. And if those three, I suppose, arms have been selected by the child, then by our definition it is play, and that does not necessarily always look the way adults want it to.

Angie: It's very messy. It's very raw. It's often chaotic. It doesn't look pretty.

Kaycee: And it can be confronting. It can be traumatic. It's not necessarily, we seem to have attached play to words like joy and fun, and it doesn't always look like that.

Laetitia: Can you give us some examples? Sorry, that was not a question that we've prepared. It's again my brain going in another direction.

Angie: Oh, that's fine. We're not very good at preparing. So we looked at them and then we never looked at them again. Okay, perfect.

Kaycee: That's why we wouldn't know what the questions that were prepared were anyway. So please.

Laetitia: Okay, great. Awesome. So something that I want to ask you is, can you give us some examples then of what play can look like in different contexts, so that some of the listeners who have this mindset of, okay, play is fun and joyful and it looks like this, can just open their mind and see different ways of playing. So you can take a few examples, but what are, you know, because you just started touching on it, and I remember when I attended your presentation at the Neurodivergent Mind conference, it just kind of opened so many things within me around how neuronormative I was with play, and how I was having this kind of very rigid interpretation of play. So can we bust some myths and open some doors for any of our listeners?

Kaycee: Absolutely. Do you have any that come to mind?

Angie: I think the best one that comes to my mind is the one that you've got, of the child.

Kaycee: Yeah. With the babies.

Speaker: Which one with the babies? The one that was pregnant every week?

Speaker: Or both of them?

Kaycee: Okay. I have two, and I suppose maybe a little bit of a trigger warning because they are, they are deep and they are complex.

Kaycee: The first one was a little girl in a play space. And each week she would bring balloons and we would have to blow up those balloons, and these balloons were her babies. So each week, out of scraps and all sorts of materials, I was making baby carriers for her, and she was every week pregnant. Every week she would give birth. Every week she would have a baby, somebody would come and take the baby. And this played out over weeks. And over weeks I started to get, I suppose, a little bit more, first there was one baby, then there was three babies, then the auntie was in prison, then the baby was taken away by the cousin. And over about, I don't know, a ten week period, this child slowly started to tell me through their play, I suppose, what had been happening in their life. And they had played it out, and when she felt comfortable enough, and it probably was well after this play cycle, I'm sorry, this play frame had kind of finished, she had told me that she had, I think it was, I can't exactly recall, but either eight or nine siblings that she was part of. Her biological parent was incarcerated, and therefore all of the children had been removed and in different placements of care.

Kaycee: But this child was playing out and making sense of the world around them and these things that had happened. And when the other children were playing and suddenly the auntie was in prison, you're going to jail, the other children would be like, well, no, you can't do that. As a play worker, I would say, well, no, this is her game. If that's what she wants to do, that's okay, but if you don't want to participate, and it kind of helped break down those other barriers for some of those other children also in very complex environments, that they then started to play out these things that had happened in their life. And so often as adults, we would stop that. No, the baby doesn't get taken away. The baby stays with the mum and the dad. Well, that doesn't always happen in life. And no, the auntie doesn't go to prison. I did obviously find out that it was direct parents. But that was very clear in this child's play, that something had gone on very seriously in this child's life. But she finally had a space to work through it.

Kaycee: And it took weeks. For weeks, we made baby carriers. And for weeks, we made babies and gave birth. And I had to be the obstetrician, and I was invited into her play to help birth the baby. And that one was, I think, really beautiful, to watch this child process all these events in their life and then move forward, because eventually that stopped.

Kaycee: Another one I had that I didn't witness, but somebody came to speak to me, I suppose, seeking some advice, for lack of a better word, is that they had a child with a baby doll. It's a lot about babies. And the baby doll was dying. The baby doll was dead, and the child wanted to bury the baby doll. So week after week, play after play, the child wanted to have like, I suppose, a funeral for the baby. And this person was really struggling with trying, how do I redirect it? How do I stop it? And I said, well, don't for starters, and do have a relationship with the family or the grown ups in this little person's life to say, has there been a traumatic event in this little person's life that they might be playing out, that we might be seeing in their play? Has somebody lost a baby? Have they lost a sibling? What might that have looked like? No, it might not be exactly as the child plays it, but it is them trying to make sense of something. I don't actually have the answer to that, but that adult said to me, I had never considered that could have been a possibility.

Kaycee: And I'm like, well, and I think we often forget that a lot of children, they don't have supports like psychologists and therapists and things like that. So when they are playing, this is their therapy as well, as all those things, you know, those learning things that go on in play. There's lots of things that go on in play, play, you know, umbrellas over, it's not just learning or

Angie: no, it's how children make sense of the world around them, in every sense, from every arm, and I suppose that's why there are so many different definitions from every arm, in every, I suppose, sector we try to attach it, you know, to either learning or physicality, this or that, where it does encompass all of those things, if children are actually just allowed to do it and explore the world around them.

Laetitia: Thank you for sharing this. And something that I'd like to ask you is, indeed, you'd want the play to be self-directed, which is one element of the definition. How do you advise for a parent or someone who is supporting a child with playing, in a situation where safety can be a concern? So a sensory seeking child who may do the jumping and the things that sometimes may be risky, not the fears that you have as a carer, but more, and I know that we had this conversation during the conference, and I just loved how you answered this question. So I just want everyone to benefit from this.

Kaycee: Oh, I can't remember how I answered the question. Do you

Angie: I know for me, it depends if other children or anybody in the vicinity is going to get hurt. That's when I would step in.

Kaycee: Yeah.

Angie: And ask some questions and redirect and do a little bit of investigating. Why is this behaviour happening? It's more about being curious about why the behaviour is happening as opposed to stopping it.

Kaycee: But if it's something that I'm uncomfortable with, so it's my bias and I'm uncomfortable with it, I would maybe step away and get another play worker to come in. I have two girls at home. They're not rough. The rough and tumble kind of gets me a little bit on edge. But Angie's super comfortable with it, so we would just swap and she would kind of navigate that situation.

Laetitia: As a parent, you can't necessarily do that.

Angie: No. In our work environment, I think for parents, understanding what level of a child getting hurt are you going to accept, for me I accept a broken bone. A broken bone can be fixed. Now, I don't want, you know, significant intense sticking out of skin broken bones, but I'm okay with a broken bone. I am not okay with catastrophic life altering injuries, so we're talking brain, spinal, those things, those are the kind that I'm going to try to mitigate.

Angie: And it's just about changing the way of thinking, when you're going, ah, they're going to get hurt, okay, well, what's the likelihood of them getting hurt? Is the likelihood actually really high? Yeah, they're really, really going to get hurt, like riding a bike perhaps without a helmet. Or is it, they're going to get hurt, but they're probably going to be okay? And that leads into the consequence. What is the consequence actually going to be? Is it going to be a cut? We can put a bandaid on that. Children do get hurt, and they learn from being hurt and pushing those boundaries. But until you actually stop and think, okay, well, how likely is it that they're going to get hurt, and if they get hurt, how bad is it going to be, we don't think about that.

Angie: We actually let children do things day in, day out, where the consequences are significant, but they are socially acceptable. We let children in cars. We put children in cars every day, and every day there is more risk putting a child in a car and driving them to a location, because although the likelihood might be lower, if there is going to be a car accident, that injury is likely to be more catastrophic. It's likely to be more life altering than say, perhaps, jumping and crashing, where we might break an arm, or we might break a leg, or we might not. We could scaffold that and mitigate that risk with a crash mat. So that child's still getting what their body needs, and we're trying to deliver that in a way where they can do it safely.

Angie: But we also talk to the child about, if this is what your body needs, this is what you need around you to do it safely, and we say safely loosely. We're trying to teach children to mitigate their own risk. Look around, who's around you? Are you jumping onto concrete? Is this hard? Is there a better surface that you could be jumping onto? Do you know how to land? Can you bend your knees as you land? All those kind of things. So children start to mitigate their own risk, instead of jumping in with stop, no, be careful, you can't do that, and scaring them. Every time we say those things, we're actually scaring them, and we're not teaching them to mitigate the risk around them.

Kaycee: Because we want children to be able to do those things, because as they get older, and they're 18 and all of a sudden they've got to make all these choices for themselves, but they've not been able to navigate any risk in their life. You explain this better than I do, but they could get themselves into real trouble if they've never been able to make any choices for their bodies, or take any risks for their bodies.

Angie: So getting into a car, drink driver, all those sorts of things. So we do these things for as they're younger, because we want them to understand their boundaries and when it doesn't feel safe and when it doesn't feel comfortable, because they know that these have led to consequences, and this, I know it sounds very controversial when I say I accept a broken bone, but I accept a broken bone because I have children that are very high seeking children, and I am truly concerned about when they are teenagers and they get into a car. I want them to understand that there are consequences for doing these things, but consequences that are, for lack of better terms, fixable and not necessarily life altering.

Kaycee: Yeah. Within the space.

Angie: Yeah. Within the space. We think, we think too much about children being children, and not the fact that we need them to grow up to be adults.

Laetitia: That's a very good point. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. And it's okay to have different opinions than the crowd. We love that on this podcast.

Angie: I didn't get there overnight either. I actually came from a background of workplace health and safety and fire safety. So it took me a really long time to shift that mindset of, you know, risk assessing and actually look at the benefit of it. Does the benefit of doing this actually outweigh the risk? What is my child learning, opposed to, they're just going to get hurt? Or what is the child learning?

Kaycee: Yeah. And now that you say that, that probably is what comes into it with, like, the rough and tumble and that sort of play.

Angie: The play that makes you uncomfortable.

Kaycee: Yeah. Because I was in long daycare where you keep your hands to yourselves. There was no sort of, well, when I started a very long time ago, there was no sort of rough and tumble play, and we didn't do that, and it wasn't allowed, and if you did, you were going to get into trouble by a director.

Laetitia: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I think we all have our own biases, and as you say, it's about knowing your own biases so that you can just take a bit of a lens through that, and I really love that. And there is another misunderstanding around play, which is how play needs to be functional, or needs to not be fixated on something. And I know that I have learned across the years raising neurodivergent children how play looks very different for them. And sometimes it's indeed the rough and tumble. I have two girls, and I'm telling you there's a rough and tumble, it's like every single day, sometimes, oh my gosh, is it safe? So this is okay. The worst thing is, as you said, a broken bone, but sometimes the head could be hurt on something. So I'm like, okay, maybe I put a mat or something. But there is also the play which is focused on special interest, and maybe lining doors or lining cars or things like that. What other ways can we be reframing this, and helping parents who have their kids who are doing this, and they may feel like, oh, but they're not playing in the way we see on TV or on shows, or the way I have played, or the way I have learned what play looks like. How can we help them really have this acceptance and nurturing of that way of playing, which is the way that their children needs?

Kaycee: I think that you hit the nail on the head by saying what they have learned play looks like. And play is not one size fits all. It is unique to every child and every person, because adults still play, bodies and abilities. If you look at it as an adult, somebody might like to jump out of a plane to play, and we think that's crazy. Why would we ever do that? Because we'd prefer to sit down and do a puzzle.

Angie: Once we're in that space of adulthood, we accept that adults do other things. But for children, it's not acceptable. And it's just about honouring that child, I think, their agency and their autonomy. And if they want to sit there and line up cars all day, that is okay, for whatever reason, and it depends on what kind of theory you want to look at, but it's a special interest, they might be mastering something, they might be looking at the very unique differences in each of those things, they might be sequencing them, they might be patterning them. Those are the children who actually notice some of the most interesting, deep things around us that we always are so quick to rush and miss.

Kaycee: And if that's what regulates that child and they're happy and content in that place, why should it be something that we move away from? Why should it be something that we force? And I'm going to get into a lot of trouble one day when we do speak to allied health, but if that is not a goal for the parent, it's not something that should be pushed just because it's a social norm. So if that parent is comfortable with that kind of play, but they are seeking assistance for something else, work on the something else, not trying to force the child into playing the way we think is right for society. And if the parent is struggling with that, I think my question is why? Is it just because it's not neuronormative? Is it causing discomfort or upset? So is it more something like, we're actually struggling with transitions and we're struggling with the play? Is that when we need to break away from that play, because that child's actually really deeply engaged in flow? It's okay to have special interests. We all have them as an adult. Mine is play. I can talk to you about play all day, and I love play theory, and I'll play nerd out to anybody. I do have a special interest. Some people might say it's a fixation or an obsession, but as an adult, we don't look at it like that.

Laetitia: Yeah.

Angie: What about grandma who collected, you know,

Kaycee: plates,

Angie: plates and teaspoons? That was socially acceptable. We've just decided

Kaycee: stamps.

Angie: Stamps. Yeah. We've just decided that these things aren't socially acceptable. But why? I think it's to always be willing to sit with the discomfort and actually ask why.

Kaycee: Do you have anything to add to that? No, I think you

Laetitia: I love it. It's so good. And definitely, having my own special interest from collecting stamps as well, and vintage bottles of perfume when I was little, I wouldn't stop going to all the old markets in France and buying those old little bottles of perfume that no one wanted. But yeah, we all have our special interest. Indeed, there are moments where parents feel uncomfortable and they try to redirect us. So this is where I think the question is, how, you know, give us a small example or a small thing, one small shift that any parent or any teacher or any therapist who is listening to this can make this week to support curiosity and non-directive play. What is one thing that they could start doing today?

Angie: The one time that they're going to say no, if it even does come out of their mouth, no, you can't do that, no, stop, no, be careful, stop and sit with that for a moment and ask yourself, actually, why is the child doing something that is putting themselves in serious danger? Is it just because it is operationally disruptive, or is it just making you uncomfortable as the adult? Does this serve the child, or does it serve yourself? So every time you either say it, or if you can get into a space where you stop yourself before, give yourself a moment, at least once a day, to unpack why it happened.

Kaycee: Mine's probably much the same, but it's, and especially because I come from an education background, it's adult agendas. Is what you're doing benefiting you? So, we're not going to do this today because it looks messy and then I'm going to have to clean it up. Or is it benefiting the children? So I would just make sure that when you walk into whatever space, whether it be a parent or an educator or a teacher or a psychologist, that you have the child at the front of your mind, and that you are looking at the whole child, and that you're making the changes in the space that you need to for those children or that child. I think that is where I would start.

Laetitia: I love it.

Angie: Is it convenient for us as the grown ups, or is it actually the right thing by the little person in your life?

Laetitia: Yeah. Whoever they may be, in whatever capacity they might be there. My house looks like a wreck all the time, because my child has so many different play frames happening that I don't have the heart to interrupt. But I was the person where the house was immaculate all the time, and I've had to let go of that so that my child can have the upbringing that I want her to have

Kaycee: and not be around, but the pillows aren't where they should be, or the rug isn't tidy all the time, or

Laetitia: Yeah, I love that. So inspirational, this letting go, Kaycee.

Angie: Kaycee's done a much better job of letting go than I have. I'm not going to lie. But I suppose with that, I actually articulate and explain to my children that this is what feels good for your body, but this is what my body needs.

Kaycee: Yeah.

Angie: You know, there can be as much chaos in your rooms, and in your playroom, but at the end of the day, I like this to be a particular way. But through actually articulating that to them, instead of getting just cross, and it's been a very, I'm still not there yet, Kaycee's much more evolved in this space than I am, they're understanding that when things get too noisy, it's like, oh, mum, mum, mum doesn't like loud noises. And explaining that to them, that we can be really loud, but please go outside, because that triggers mum and that's going to set mum off.

Kaycee: Yeah. And being open in that dialogue about what my body needs, too.

Laetitia: And I'm learning that as well, that my boundaries matter as much as their boundaries. I've always been a mum that's kind of given everything. I think with the last year and my complex medical needs, I've really had to start putting my boundaries down. And I think as parents we forget that our boundaries do matter too. I know we've gone off the topic of play, but I think that's important as a neurodivergent parent.

Kaycee: Yeah, definitely important to honour our own needs. And this is where, when you were talking about the messiness in your house, for me it's stressing me so much, and the loud noises, so definitely with the girls I may wear my Loop earplugs, I may end up putting on a noise cancelling headphone. But when it's too much, I really invite them to go outside, and they know that there is a moment where, for me, the rough and tumble and the noise and the screaming, it's just getting too much and gets me dysregulated. Yeah, I'm inviting them to step outside. But with the messy, I'm really, everything has a space, like all my traits of autism, that part, you know,

Angie: the cushions are not in the right place, I get very triggered

Laetitia: and I think that's okay.

Kaycee: We windows of tolerance. So we use those words with the children. Windows, my windows are really starting to close, the noise is starting to get too loud for me, mummy's getting up here, I'm getting higher and higher, and now my eldest in particular is starting to use that sort of same language. My windows starting to close, mummy, I can feel myself starting to get overwhelmed.

Angie: I love it.

Laetitia: Oh my gosh, so much wisdom in this. I absolutely love chatting with you every time. So before we leave, I always love to ask a quick fire insight, which is coming back to you, what is your favourite play? What is your favourite sensory experience that lights you up, as adults, both of you working as play workers, what is the thing that you're like, oh my god,

Kaycee: I, in all honesty, I just love being here, and I love watching the children do what it is that their bodies need to do, that's what

Angie: pushing those boundaries, regulation is different. And for myself and my children, when we've got like a second acre, it's all bush, I love being down there, and running and just being free. And I think for you, it's just outside time in nature, anywhere.

Kaycee: Yeah, that would be, and making people feel safe and secure, and that they feel they belong somewhere, and that somewhere is here, is what keeps me going.

Laetitia: Psychologically safe. I think that's yours.

Angie: I like to light fires. I love lighting fires with the children. I love that mastery and that resilience, especially, and it's very stereotypical, but especially, maybe it's because I'm a boy mum, but the little boys that are, and I don't use this word, but this is what we hear all the time, of course, the little boys that are naughty, they're the challenging ones, they're the behaviour ones. You know, sometimes in a school setting, they've got the red vest on because they're being behaviourally managed. And nothing gives me more than sitting down with them and giving them dangerous tools. So like knives and whittling and hammers and flint and steel, and saying, I trust you. And watching them work through that frustration and get it out, and then accomplish something. And then once they have accomplished it, being like, hey, I can do this. And that translates to so many other life skills. I have sat here and watched children, both boys and girls, with a flint and steel rod, working for 30 to 45 minutes trying to start a fire. This is how we build resilience in children. We don't just break them down and expect them to stand back up. And I see that, and Kaycee probably prefers working with the littlies. I do prefer the older, perhaps more, as I said, labelled as challenging. Maybe that's because my play bias, because that's what I was labelled as a child. But I love sitting in that space with them and working through some of those things. That's what sets my heart on fire.

Laetitia: Thank you.

Angie: You're welcome.

Laetitia: Both of you, Kaycee and Angie. So for anyone who's listening to this and they want to learn more about your work, about Curious Me, how can they find out more? How can they connect with you?

Angie: We're pretty active on social. So you'll find Curious Me on Instagram and Facebook. Website curiousme.com.au. You can email us.

Laetitia: Awesome.

Angie: You can find me on LinkedIn. You won't find Kaycee, but if you wanted to connect professionally, I'm on LinkedIn, Angie Casella.

Angie: Yeah. Kaycee stays on socials.

Kaycee: I'm terrible at anything that says you need to be professional. On Instagram we're at underscore curiousme, and on Facebook I'm pretty sure we're Curious Me Aus.

Laetitia: Thank you. Thank you so much to the both of you. I don't want to hold you back from going back and playing. So enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you for today.

Speaker: Thank you so much for having us.

Laetitia: Welcome to another pulse from Zoe in The Neurodivergent Pulse podcast. So Zoe, today we talked about playing. What are your

Zoe: I like to jump around, climb, and play with my games, and play funny games with my parents.

Laetitia: I love it. And at school, how do you like playing? How do you play with your friends at school?

Zoe: I would either play soccer or climb around on the monkey bars. And sometimes, but not much, I would go and play in the sand pit.

Laetitia: Amazing. And how do you feel when you play?

Zoe: This invisible emotion that swirls around me that I can't really describe.

Laetitia: Okay.

Zoe: That you can only feel in the moment.

Laetitia: Amazing.

Zoe: It's a very special feeling.

Laetitia: A very special feeling. Oh, thank you Zoe. Thank you for sharing with us how playing feels and what your favourite play is. I hope you all enjoy this, and let's all reclaim play. That's a wrap for The Neurodivergent Pulse. If this helped, follow the show and leave us a quick review on your favourite platform. You can even share this episode with someone who needs it. You can learn more about our platform at understandingzoe.com.